Life In 19x19

Also worth checking out Yuan Zhou's "Master Play" series, with detailed commentary on pro games, including the opening.

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Leyleth wrote:Thanks for these tips. Didn't knew most of them I'm just wondering about what you meant by: "Don't run on dame". You mean, don't play dames or don't create some?

Huh, I cannot find a sensei's page for this, weird.

The basic idea is that if you are running with some stones, you want to be running through a valuable area, but it's a bit more specific than that. I'm having trouble giving a better description without an example, I'll try to keep my eyes open for one if nobody else explains it better first...

The senseis page for "dame" (http://senseis.xmp.net/?Dame) references what I believe you are talking about:

C. In the middle game as well, an uninteresting point. Often used in the context of "Black was forced to play on a dame point to connect his two one-eyed groups.". Dame wo hashiru.

(Note: "hashiru" is to run.)

In my opinion, the idea of "running on dame" means playing stones that are not gaining you any points. Sometimes this is necessary, because otherwise you will die. The example given on senseis illustrates that, I think. "Black was forced to play on a dame point" is like saying that black had to play on an intersection that didn't really give him points, but was necessary to save his group.

You can contrast this with playing dual-purpose moves - attacking your opponent for example - so that you do not have to play that kind of a safety move that's not worth points - you get life naturally, while making more points with every move.

I perused google a bit to try to find an example, and came across this page: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/kkm3/e/b2f2eefb81 ... 2fa55eb43b

The title includes「ダメ走り」, which is dame running like we are talking about.

Of particular interest in the article is later down on the page when the author says the following:

仕方なく黒25・27と攻めたがダメを走って感激がない。

Which is something along the lines of, "Black’s unavoidable/reluctant attack of 25 through 27 was running on dame and had no inspiration (or, perhaps, was not impressive/interesting)."

If we take a look at the actual game to see what black 25 through 27 are, we have this diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My interpretation of this comment is that, black 25 and 27, above, are - while somewhat of an attack - lacking real inspiration and not getting points for black. When the game is all finished and we are tallying up the score, black 25 and 27 won't be stones that contribute to any real points for black. There probably won't be any black points in that area when all is said in done - they will be dame.

So if possible, in the opening, try to play in spots that get you points in the end - that aren't dame. But it's hard to know what these spots are sometimes, in my opinion. :-p

Kirby wrote:

Tami wrote: Oh, and never underestimate your opponents - you're going to start meet other players who are as serious about go as you are...

This is so hard for me to do, sometimes, against those around my same rank. Any tips?

It's hard for me, too ... I've found, though, that I'm more cautious lately because of how MANY so-called "weaker" players turn around and slaughter me.

So, I guess my answer is "play more games".

Marcus wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Tami wrote: Oh, and never underestimate your opponents - you're going to start meet other players who are as serious about go as you are...

This is so hard for me to do, sometimes, against those around my same rank. Any tips?

It's hard for me, too ... I've found, though, that I'm more cautious lately because of how MANY so-called "weaker" players turn around and slaughter me.

So, I guess my answer is "play more games".

Oh yes. There are very stubborn players out there. They will try to turn around a 30 plus point disadvantage by engineering somthing inside something what you believe(d) to be save territory. And they are very good at it too!
I guess it requires a certain skill to win a won game. ^^

p2501 wrote: Oh yes. There are very stubborn players out there. They will try to turn around a 30 plus point disadvantage by engineering somthing inside something what you believe(d) to be save territory. And they are very good at it too!
I guess it requires a certain skill to win a won game. ^^

This brings to mind two quotes:

"The hardest thing to win is a won game"
Frank Marshall, Chess, US Champion

and (Somewhat paraphrased, as I don't have a copy of the art of war with me)

"An army without any hope of escape will fight to the death.... Always leave your opponent a path to retreat"
-Sun Tzu

It is when your opponent has no other hopes left, and is grasping for any straw, that the battle becomes the toughest. It is also, usually, when you are at your weakest. You are aware that you can lose many battles and still be ahead.

Learning how to win a won game is a pretty vital skill. Fights that looked unfavorable to your opponent back when they had other options (because if it failed, you would consolidate, and they would lose), are now suddenly on the table.

I know when I'm in trouble, my depth of reading increases. When I'm ahead, it tends to be more peripheral.

My approach to stem this last charge is to put myself in my opponents shoes. (And thinking to yourself "if that was me, I'd resign now" is awful.)

I think to myself "Alright, if that were me, I'd be after this group, but there's no way to do it now, so I would need to get a fight going which will lead me over there, if I can complicate it, I could bring it back to life, kill this, escape this, etc..."

I guarantee that there will come a choice, where you can choose to keep beating on them, or let them have a "small victory". I.e. leave them a tactical retreat.

If you see what the end target is, you will see that choice coming.

shapenaji wrote:"The hardest thing to win is a won game"
Emanuel Lasker, Chess World Champion

That was Frank Marshall, US Chess Champion (not that that reduces its applicability).

I was sure Lasker said it... maybe he was just quoting Marshall? but I learned that factoid at the tables out in Dupont circle, from a gentleman of dubious credibility....

so..Fix'd

Leyleth consider this: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5518

Has Leyleth given up or is he just not posting updates here anymore?

His kgs nick/graph or something should be somewhere in this thread.

edit:
http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=Schnapps

Josh Hatch wrote:Has Leyleth given up or is he just not posting updates here anymore?

I was forced to give up, unfortunately. I spent too much time reading go books and studying go in class. I started to fail. I dropped go and started focusing on my studies. I'm back at playing, but with only a fraction of my strength

However, good thing is that I started showing Hailthorn the ropes. Weirdly, while I'm doing this, I feel like my level's rising again. I might be weaker than before, but it's like I was learning something else... It's very hard to say... I do feel like I'm starting to realize something that makes me stronger than ever. Will have to understand what it is...

Always comes down to distribution of effort in that 168 hours of each week. There's a reason why Yoshinori's degree is an outlier and why so few go professionals complete university studies.

Full-time professional go is without a doubt a life commitment. I love the game, but not that much.