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Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:52 am
by Bill Spight
Zombie wrote:This short of a term, yes. Surprisingly recent, too, last 100 years or so. But for the most part it's still just acceleration and intesification of the basic urge that drives civilization onwards - growth, conquest, control, destructive use of the landbase.
That reminds me of Gandhi's quip. When asked what he thought of Western civilization, he replied, "I think it would be a good idea."
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:57 am
by jts
Bill Spight wrote:Zombie wrote:Civilization is built like that. It's based on short-term exploitation, industrialization just makes it worse. It won't change until it absolutely has to.
Civilization was built by people with a long term outlook. Consider Egyptian pyramids and Roman aqueducts. Even today Japanese lacquerware is made to last for centuries. Short term exploitation is modern, and largely Western.
Civilization was built by people who left salty deserts all over the breadbaskets of antiquity. In their aqueduct-building days, the Romans were one bunch short of a banana republic. If you get judged exclusively on what you can still see standing millennia after your society has (ahem) collapsed, it's very easy to look far-sighted.
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:30 pm
by Bill Spight
jts wrote:Bill Spight wrote:Zombie wrote:Civilization is built like that. It's based on short-term exploitation, industrialization just makes it worse. It won't change until it absolutely has to.
Civilization was built by people with a long term outlook. Consider Egyptian pyramids and Roman aqueducts. Even today Japanese lacquerware is made to last for centuries. Short term exploitation is modern, and largely Western.
Civilization was built by people who left salty deserts all over the breadbaskets of antiquity. In their aqueduct-building days, the Romans were one bunch short of a banana republic. If you get judged exclusively on what you can still see standing millennia after your society has (ahem) collapsed, it's very easy to look far-sighted.
I am no classicist or antiquarian, but I have studied enough to know that those civilizations generally took a long view. I simply gave examples of that.
That said, that does not mean that they did not degrade their environment. Even the pre-holocene societies of the Americas may well have caused the extinction of the mega-fauna. (For one thing, the pattern of extinction runs from north to south, in line with supposed human migration from Siberia.) The plains Indians were certainly not above setting prairie fires out of sheer exuberance.
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:07 pm
by jts
Bill Spight wrote:
I am no classicist or antiquarian, but I have studied enough to know that those civilizations generally took a long view. I simply gave examples of that.
That said, that does not mean that they did not degrade their environment. Even the pre-holocene societies of the Americas may well have caused the extinction of the mega-fauna. (For one thing, the pattern of extinction runs from north to south, in line with supposed human migration from Siberia.) The plains Indians were certainly not above setting prairie fires out of sheer exuberance.
I'm just not sure what the evidence would be for a "long view". I don't think the Polynesians who deforested several entire islands were more or less far sighted than the Japanese or English, who very nearly, but not quite, managed the same thing on their islands. I think that the consumer goods I use are vastly more durable than those available to even elite Egyptians. Certainly I take a longer-term view with respect to my teeth than the pharaohs did to theirs. Our society frets about deficits over an 80-year time horizon, which is theatrically long - did the Delian league ever calculate so much as a ten year budget?
Cars and computers have lots of moving parts and, despite being very hard to manufacture, break down sooner than wheelbarrows and abaci. But I don't think we should base claims about cultural attitudes on the durability of the raw materials involved in various productions techniques. If lacquerware is evidence that the Japanese take the long view, is ukiyo-e evidence for "churn it out and throw it out"?
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:41 pm
by Bill Spight
@ jts
We are talking about different things.
By a long view I mean perspective and values.
In Chekhov's play,
Uncle Vanya Dr. Astrov tells of planting a large stand of trees and looks forward to people enjoying those trees 1,000 years into the future. He is taking a long view. Some Japanese families make lacquerware to last 1500 years. They are taking a long view. By contrast, some manufacturers make printers with a counter so that the printers stop working after they print out a certain number of pages, even though they are still in working condition. Making things to stop working or to fall apart is a modern idea. That is not to say that traditional civilizations did not make things that fell apart.
But, with some exceptions, they did not make them to fall apart on purpose.
Yes, the Fertile Crescent is not as fertile as it used to be. Did that happen on purpose? Conservation requires not only foresight but also caring about it, caring about nature, caring about future humans.
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:38 am
by Zombie
Not just the fertile crescent. Greece and Italy. The American Dust Bowl. Jordan.
A thousand years is a pretty short view, all told. Still way better than what we have now.
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:15 am
by Magicwand
Scientist now admit that their theory on global warming is wrong...
Everyone is fooled by politic.....
sorry for brining this thread back to life.
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:22 am
by p2501
Magicwand wrote:Scientist now admit that their theory on global warming is wrong...
Everyone is fooled by politic.....
sorry for brining this thread back to life.
source/link?
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:25 am
by Magicwand
p2501 wrote:Magicwand wrote:Scientist now admit that their theory on global warming is wrong...
Everyone is fooled by politic.....
sorry for brining this thread back to life.
source/link?
http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/09/2 ... t-we-lied/
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:36 am
by SoDesuNe
Some more info here:
http://www.news.com.au/national-news/gl ... 6720435324And as always some sort of counter-study:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-17/s ... te/4962796In the end, better live in a healthy world with global warming than in a polluted world without it.
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:40 am
by HermanHiddema
Your source took a 4 year old RT newscast and pasted a new date on it.
This happened in 2009, and was heavily investigated. To quote wikipedia:
Eight committees investigated the allegations and published reports, finding no evidence of fraud or scientific misconduct. The scientific consensus that global warming is occurring as a result of human activity remained unchanged by the end of the investigations.
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:53 am
by Magicwand
on counter-study there are 7 scientists who work in University Corporation for Atmospheric Research and he is the only one who support that theory. I will not even go that far... he porposed the theory of climate change (now proven wrong) while all others disagreed and that one theory is used by politicians such as Dumass Gore to profit off misinformed ppl.
there is no climate change and until it is proven dont be a prop for those who take advantage off you.
if there is global warming...it is proven that it will actually help us anyway.
dont ask for source on above please...
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:24 am
by SoDesuNe
HermanHiddema wrote:Your source took a 4 year old RT newscast and pasted a new date on it.
This happened in 2009, and was heavily investigated. To quote wikipedia:
Eight committees investigated the allegations and published reports, finding no evidence of fraud or scientific misconduct. The scientific consensus that global warming is occurring as a result of human activity remained unchanged by the end of the investigations.
Link? : D
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:39 am
by Bill Spight
Magicwand wrote:Scientist now admit that their theory on global warming is wrong...
Everyone is fooled by politic.....
sorry for brining this thread back to life.
Yes, things have gotten worse faster than original projections.
Re: Climate change / global warming
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:43 am
by Bill Spight
Magicwand wrote:there is no climate change and until it is proven dont be a prop for those who take advantage off you.
That's like saying that we are driving in a fog and the road is getting worse, but don't slow down. Wait until the road ends.
if there is global warming...it is proven that it will actually help us anyway.
The lobster population is coming back. I look forward to cheap lobster in the near future. And maybe it will get so warm that I can move to Canada.