The future of KGS

[daal]

...
...The idea has been considered and rejected. I think you're confusing what you want with what the wider KGS community wants. I'm not aware of any groundswell of support for this feature.
...

Striked out portion should be "wms wants". There's a KGS wishlist, but features are by no means implemented directly in relation to public consensus.

Just because WMS doesn't implement features democratically, doesn't mean that what BigDoug said was inaccurate. People writing on a wishlist can easily be a vocal minority, and when a user implies that everyone wants timestamps, he may indeed be confusing what he wants with what everyone wants, whether or not WMS wants it.

[quantumf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but WMS wouldn't actually have to allow anyone direct access to KGS in order for them to contribute. People could write the code and submit the fixes to him, then he could implement them (or not) at his leisure. If he doesn't accept help it's because he doesn't want it.

As soon as wms accepts help with KGS code, it changes his ownership. He would not be free to monetize the code in any way he saw fit, such as the recent Android (paid) app, particularly in a litigious place like the USA.

[Boidhre]

And, it should have been obvious that I was referring to speedchase's point not BigDoug's given my choice of terms and that I referring to the interpretation that people are making of BigDoug's post and them seeing a false analogy from it, i.e. that you cannot quickly understand what he would say if you are not an IT professional. Which isn't a great point since not all IT professionals know much about coding or managing coding projects and there is a fair bit of coding that goes on outside of the IT profession.

To be clear, I am more on BigDoug's side here than the other, I just disagree with how he phrased things there. I appreciate the actual point he was trying to make.

I still didn't make that claim in any way, so it is still a straw man.

It's not a straw man argument if I misinterpret what you're saying in a reasonable way. I don't claim you said that, I merely say one could read that from what you said.

[HermanHiddema]

It's not a straw man argument if I misinterpret what you're saying in a reasonable way. I don't claim you said that, I merely say one could read that from what you said.

I don't think "All non-IT professionals are non-techies" is a reasonable interpretation. It is a statement that is clearly ridiculous, and if you think that it is reasonable to assume that that is what speedchase meant, I would consider that a direct insult. You're effectively saying: Speedchase is the kind of person who is obtuse enough to make a statement like "All non-IT professionals are non-techies".

[billywoods]

That's why I asked you about your IT industry background. If you told me that you're a high school student taking your first programming class, then I'd use different terms and concepts than if you told me you have 20 years as a developer in commercial environments.

I've already made my experience pretty clear throughout this thread, though: I'm old enough to be paying student debts, but young enough to have grown up under the internet; I am experienced enough in programming (in C, if you care) to have taught courses in and tutored it, but I have insufficient experience to consider myself able to contribute usefully to open-source projects. If you're interested (for good reasons) in my general computer literacy, or my competency as a programmer, you're very welcome to ask, but you are not welcome to ask about my professional background. To be honest, I'd prefer it if you asked me about the bug!

You state as a matter of fact that the lag is caused by a KGS bug. I don't agree with this yet. We haven't yet eliminated your computer, your cables, your firewall, your wireless router (if you have one), your local network infrastructure and so on and so on.

You haven't yet asked whether I have performed basic testing (such as running the client on different computers and on different networks, disabling and enabling firewalls, and trying basic advice handed to me by Google). Let me make it clear: I have, and I have no other problems with connectivity or other Java applets. If you have questions, please just ask them, rather than saying "I don't yet know that you've done x". I find that tone very grating.

[Boidhre]

It's not a straw man argument if I misinterpret what you're saying in a reasonable way. I don't claim you said that, I merely say one could read that from what you said.

I don't think "All non-IT professionals are non-techies" is a reasonable interpretation. It is a statement that is clearly ridiculous, and if you think that it is reasonable to assume that that is what speedchase meant, I would consider that a direct insult. You're effectively saying: Speedchase is the kind of person who is obtuse enough to make a statement like "All non-IT professionals are non-techies".

No.

If someone says: "Ideally I'd like to explain it to people that are A. People that are B cannot understand these things." It infers that the author thinks not-As are Bs. This doesn't logically follow from what they said but the human mind doesn't work deductively and fills in an extraneous "All not-As are Bs" in the middle there sometimes. This structure is what I object to here, not because I think speedchase thinks this but it's because what some people will read this way and will get their backs up. It's a very commonly used argument structure in Politics because it draws this kind of association while being perfectly defensible as "no reasonable person could interpret it that way," it will however successfully get under the skin of some people because of the implication that they see. (I don't think speedchase was doing this) Phrase it as "Ideally I'd like to explain the new tax regime to people that are economists. People who understand nothing about economics won't be able to understand what I say" and you can see what I mean. Is it absurd to draw that conclusion? Yes. Will some people get upset about a statement like this? Yes. In a heated argument, like here, they usually won't go the extra step and ask "could the author have meant what they appear to say?"

[deja]

And in my case, one of the neighbor's henchmen comes along and kicks me out of the car onto the road because of a misunderstanding. I try to clear the misunderstanding up, and tell my neighbor that I was hurt by what the henchman did, and my neighbor tells me to go **** off because I don't pay him anything for his car.

Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0
Help, help! I'm being repressed!

Listen. Strange programmers from the Left Coast monopolizing code is no basis for a system of Go playing. Supreme executive playing derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical collection of hegemonic admins.

[duckweed]

I've already made my experience pretty clear throughout this thread, though: I'm old enough to be paying student debts, but young enough to have grown up under the internet; I am experienced enough in programming (in C, if you care) to have taught courses in and tutored it, but I have insufficient experience to consider myself able to contribute usefully to open-source projects. If you're interested (for good reasons) in my general computer literacy, or my competency as a programmer, you're very welcome to ask, but you are not welcome to ask about my professional background. To be honest, I'd prefer it if you asked me about the bug!

Your skills in programming or lack of have nothing to do with any understanding of how the internet works. Citing it seems pointless.

Major sites spend a lot of money and resources to keep their sites from lagging, often setting up servers in many countries. This is not duplicable by KGS.

It is implausible to have isolate it as a server software bug without assistance from someone with access to the peer (the server) itself.

You will need admins to work with you to perform tests from their side to eliminate it as a network issue first.

[SpongeBob]

Major sites spend a lot of money and resources to keep their sites from lagging, often setting up servers in many countries. This is not duplicable by KGS.

Despite of this, I think no one would be complaining about lags, if the client would just place the stone and stop the clock in that very instance when I click the mouse. That's how Tygem does it - works like a charm.

[billywoods]

Your skills in programming or lack of have nothing to do with any understanding of how the internet works. Citing it seems pointless.

Don't be ridiculous. It was BigDoug that asked whether "you're a high school student taking your first programming class [or] you have 20 years as a developer". I didn't volunteer this information. I also think it's irrelevant.

It is implausible to have isolate it as a server software bug without assistance from someone with access to the peer (the server) itself.

I've not isolated it as anything; I think it's a confusing mixture of factors I don't understand. But I do understand that KGS is the only instance of this lag that I experience (apart from the rather extreme cases BigDoug mentioned earlier), so the fault is almost certainly not with my machine, or anything of the sort. And if it's not affecting everyone else, then the server is probably not under prohibitive amounts of load, which would (presumably) affect everyone equally badly. Where the fault actually lies, I don't know. But even if the problem is simply that KGS is not communicating well with my machines or my network, there is probably a reasonable sense in which that is still a fault with KGS.

[Javaness2]

Shouldn't we be using an analogy to discuss lag? Maybe some kind of tea party, or community fair?

[BigDoug]

Shouldn't we be using an analogy to discuss lag? Maybe some kind of tea party, or community fair?

Diagnosing lag is like a box of chocolates. You never know in advance what the cause is gonna be.

[duckweed]

.. Where the fault actually lies, I don't know. But even if the problem is simply that KGS is not communicating well with my machines or my network, there is probably a reasonable sense in which that is still a fault with KGS.

This is the leap of logic people have trouble with ...

[speedchase]

Any argument relating to the internet taking the form "This problem only happens when I am doing XYZ, therefore it is XYZ's fault" is idiotic.

[EdLee]

Blind men and an elephant

Cargo cult science