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Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:33 am
by quantumf
gaius wrote: I think playing with the idea that you "should be leading" is a bad idea, even if your several stones stronger. At least for me, this nagging feeling that I should come out ahead of any battle against a weaker opponent is the number 1 reason for losing unnecessarily against weaker players. Sometimes, they just play good moves and 50/50 is OK
Note also that in a tournament players raise their game, particularly if they're the lower ranked player.
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:25 am
by Magicwand
if white cut as below...black will be in trouble.
i will have to think about why...but i know the answer is to cut.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:43 pm
by gaius
Magicwand, I don't see the trouble yet... What can white do?
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcWell, white can live in the corner. Woohoo, that's at least 2 points of cash in the pocket!
$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:25 pm
by ez4u
Most analysis has White descending first and only cutting if Black descends in turn. See
this page on SL. However the idea of blocking above and letting White turn is simply saying that Black blocked on the wrong side to begin with.
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:30 pm
by Magicwand
that is why i told you that i have to think about it
your second diag is only possible in ddk relm.
so... how about below? i also have to think about this but..i am thinking it will be better for white than plain joseky.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc$$Bc plain joseky
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc plain joseky
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:51 pm
by Marcus
Magicwand wrote: if white cut as below...black will be in trouble.
i will have to think about why...but i know the answer is to cut.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcThis is one of my favourite positions. There's one more thing to do before the cut, though. I know two variations (hidden for brevity):
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcIf Black tries to separate (b), White can cut.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcSo, Black can protect the cut, and White gets a large(-ish) corner.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcSecond variation:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcA similar position. Black can still protect the cut (a), and again, White gets a large corner:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcThe other option for Black is the following:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc is a nice tesuji. Black can't play at 'a':
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcBlack is in trouble here. Instead, Black should play at
...
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcIn the typical joseki, Black does not exchange
for
... a slight advantage for White over the usual joseki, as Black has wasted some aji.
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:15 am
by gaius
ez4u, of course I know that your analysis usually does apply, and usually the hane is bad. But how about this case? I see this:
1)
and
have a beautiful relationship with the marked stone.
2) Black has sente to play
, which is huge and makes ALL black stones work together.
3) Black can still look forward to a move like 'a', to connect all the stones and make the moyo reach out over the whole board.
4) If black would've blocked on the other side to begin with, that would have been gote.
Is really everybody disagreeing with me here?
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc@Magicwand:
That second diagramme was more like a joke of course
But is your variation really playable?? I just see white dying with no compensation. There is not even a decent squeeze, I think.
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:58 am
by HermanHiddema
I think the next round can start, right?
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:14 am
by topazg
gaius wrote: Is really everybody disagreeing with me here?
Sounds like it's a comparison between:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcand:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcI'm not strong enough to say, but it feels like swings and roundabouts to me.
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:15 am
by perceval
topazg wrote: $$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcI'm not strong enough to say, but it feels like swings and roundabouts to me.
why is
needed in that situation? can B kill otherwise ?
sente seems pretty big here so i would be tempted to tenuki as W if my corner can stay alive
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:27 am
by topazg
It's not necessary in an absolute sense, but this is pretty painful locally:
$$Bc (Ladder requirement notwithstanding)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc (Ladder requirement notwithstanding)$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:25 am
by ez4u
HermanHiddema wrote: I think the next round can start, right?
Before all the other questions, I think this is key. The rounds have been slower than expected. Can we make some progress before 2012 rolls around?
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:52 am
by ez4u
gaius wrote: ez4u, of course I know that your analysis usually does apply, and usually the hane is bad. But how about this case? I see this:
1)
and
have a beautiful relationship with the marked stone.
2) Black has sente to play
, which is huge and makes ALL black stones work together.
3) Black can still look forward to a move like 'a', to connect all the stones and make the moyo reach out over the whole board.
4) If black would've blocked on the other side to begin with, that would have been gote.
Is really everybody disagreeing with me here?
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc...
I don't claim to really understand this stuff, but it seems to me that although Black has some nice frameworks here and there, he actually has no territory. Is it going to be enough? I think that White has all kinds of invasion points (see 'a' below). Also Black has some difficulty in how to close the bottom right - it has a poor relationship with the bottom left because White has an easy slide along the bottom.
in the diagram above (marked stone below) might be better at 'b' because it would leave a follow-up play at 'c'. After
below, I would not feel very worried as White, since the pressure would be on Black to show how to profit from the plays so far. (P.S. I just got back from dinner with a friend, so if none of this makes sense I blame it on the 2 1/2 bottles of wine consumed.
)
$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:29 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
HermanHiddema wrote: I think the next round can start, right?
Yes, it can. But October 17th is a big day for taxes ( April 15 plus the standard 6-month extension plus a weekend ) So, I'll probably not have pairings up until the 18th or late on the 17th.
Re: L19 2011 tournament: PAIRINGS and RESULTS
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:33 am
by Aphelion
Why aren't the pairings automated, like almost all tournaments are? I think this will do a great deal to minimize effort and have the tournament move along faster.
is a nice tesuji. Black can't play at 'a':
...
for 
and 
have a beautiful relationship with the marked stone.
, which is huge and makes ALL black stones work together.
below, I would not feel very worried as White, since the pressure would be on Black to show how to profit from the plays so far. (P.S. I just got back from dinner with a friend, so if none of this makes sense I blame it on the 2 1/2 bottles of wine consumed. 
)