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Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:18 am
by Magicwand
How did you define capture? And ladderbreaker? Opposing string? Your mathskill need some improvement.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:29 am
by Splatted
When people get shown a strong move they say "I didn't think of that", so I'm going to take a guess and say that the answer is to think. At the very least I it's something I need to do more. All too often I play just on instinct, or make a move that achieves an immediate goal, without thinking about what kind of situation I expect to arise from it.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:32 am
by RobertJasiek
Magicwand wrote:How did you define capture? And ladderbreaker? Opposing string? Your mathskill need some improvement.


I do not think that Tami has asked for a mathematical definition. Nevertheless, your questions are relevant if one wants to approach a mathematical definition.

"A move is a _capture_ if it transforms the status of opposing strings from unsettled to dead." (J1F, p. 126.)

"A move is a _removal_ if it takes opposing (*) strings from the board." (J1F, p. 126.)

(*) Depending on context, under rules allowing suicide, a different variation of the definition is needed.

"Opposing string = string of stones of the opponent."

"Typically, a _ladder_ is a string that moves zig-zag, alternately has one or liberties, but finally ends without liberty." (J1F, p. 131.)

"A _ladder breaker_ is a play not string-connecting itself to the ladder string but changing its liberty status."

(Before you ask, opponent, stone, string, string-connection, liberty are defined elsewhere at obvious places or in J1F.)

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:37 am
by Tami
Tami wrote:I challenge you to explain in words why a geta works in a way that is better than simply showing.


RobertJasiek wrote:
(I prefer 'net' to 'geta' and 'capture' to 'work'.)

Citation from Joseki 1 Fundamentals, p. 129:

"A net is a capture that contains some opposing strings very tightly even if they try to escape, and one that does not allow ladder breakers."


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc You lose! :-P
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]


Splatted wrote:
When people get shown a strong move they say "I didn't think of that", so I'm going to take a guess and say that the answer is to think. At the very least I it's something I need to do more. All too often I play just on instinct, or make a move that achieves an immediate goal, without thinking about what kind of situation I expect to arise from it.


You're very close, but no cigar...perhaps a quick drag on a Benson and Hedges if you`re lucky...

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:24 am
by John Fairbairn
When people get shown a strong move they say "I didn't think of that", so I'm going to take a guess and say that the answer is to think. At the very least I it's something I need to do more. All too often I play just on instinct, or make a move that achieves an immediate goal, without thinking about what kind of situation I expect to arise from it.


It is this attitude that seems to be the problem, according to the chess literature mentioned here passim. Recall the award-winning book "Move First, Think Later".

A famous chess trainer is mentioned elsewhere as remonstrating with his pupils. When he asked why they played a certain move, they invariably began, "Well, I thought..." And he says, "Stop right there! That's the problem."

What it really boils down to is that you need to do the thinking work before the game, not during. Of course, there's much more to it than that. For one thing it's important to do the work in such as way that it becomes part of your intuition rather than just part of your deep memory. Repetition has a lot to do with that, but I think it's Rowson who made the point that the order of doing the work is also important because that determines how the part of your brain that subconsciously makes all the associations sorts out the connections for you. Efficient associations are obviously valuable, but interestingly they don't seem to depend on a naive "fundamentals first" policy. You can dot around studying what you like, so long as you avoid contradicitions (i.e. confusing your brain as what goes where in the associations library). But even that is not the key. The key seems to be doing your study in a way that avoids ego, in two ways. One is called (I think) self-identification - how you see yourself as a chess or go player. You may think of yourself as, say, an aggressive player. That will get you into the bad habit of learning only things that reinforce your self image. This is not only a severe limitation but may be the biggest problem of all. As we can see for ourselves on L19, many weaker players like to mention that they try to play like Shuwa, or whoever. Apparently the same syndrome exists in chess.

The other problem is over-confidence in one's reasoning, especially when it comes to drawing conclusions. Weaker players tend to be much more confident than strong players. The very strongest players actually are very wishy-washy. Time and again the chess writers report (and you can see this on chess sites where kibitzers are allowed, but of course also in go on kgs) that on being shown a new position weak players say things like, "White is winning" but a strong grandmaster will say,"Maybe White has chances". A very strong grandmaster will just say, "Hmmm". Actually this paradigm (which I gather applies to other fields of endeavour) seems to work so well that I suspect it may be how pros assess the grade of players they meet for the first time.

So in summary, you need to be prepared to study a lot, but with humility and open-mindedness, you need to allow your brain to sort out all the associations for itself (the part called "the beast within") and then you need to trust that beast to supply good moves to your intuition. Obviously, in real play you need to think about these moves, but not in the sense of finding (aka seeing/recognising) them. You need to verify them, either by calculation or by asking yourself whether there are extraneous factors influencing you, such as time pressure or your place in a tournament (e.g. whether to play for a win or a draw).

Naturally, if you can add to that mix the guidance of a teacher who can make sure that your study avoids contradictions as much as possible, then you will make even more progress. Most of us can't afford a teacher, but perhaps studying the games of a single player - as pros so often recommend - is a proxy way of avoiding contradictions over a long period of study.

At the risk of overegging the pudding, I think it would be wise to add another nugget from the chess experience. Among perennially weaker players it is common for them to learn one significant item, such as a proverb, a formula or a new way of looking at things, and then to experience a surge of improvement. Almost invariably, however, they soon fall back to their old grade. A common response then is to buy more books or more snake oil in the hope of getting another "high". But chess or go proverbs and formulas work no better than drugs.

Depressingly, the best advice for playing good go is a four-letter word ending in k and wrapped up in a two-word phrase:

Hard work.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:35 am
by RobertJasiek
Tami wrote:You lose!


I win because
- a diagram of only one example is insufficient information while a definition has general information,
- it is unclear from your diagram what it wants to convey (could be, e.g., "making a superfluous play"),
- your diagram is a bad example (add a few white stones to improve it).

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:48 am
by RobertJasiek
John Fairbairn wrote:you need to do the thinking work before the game


This is basically correct because one has much more time before than during a game.

Concerning most of the rest of your message, I have almost the opposite opinion (and experience), as discussed earlier, except that...

Hard work


...I consider this a necessity but not the only important one.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:54 am
by Tami
John Fairbairn wrote:At the risk of overegging the pudding, I think it would be wise to add another nugget from the chess experience. Among perennially weaker players it is common for them to learn one significant item, such as a proverb, a formula or a new way of looking at things, and then to experience a surge of improvement. Almost invariably, however, they soon fall back to their old grade. A common response then is to buy more books or more snake oil in the hope of getting another "high". But chess or go proverbs and formulas work no better than drugs.

Depressingly, the best advice for playing good go is a four-letter word ending in k and wrapped up in a two-word phrase:


I agree with this completely.

Now, although I`m sure I have identified the most important thing to work on, I can say it`s not a "formula" or "hack" of the kind you have just mentioned. It`s not even a go skill, specifically. Far from reducing effort, it`s something that is very difficult indeed to do well; but I can imagine that the more you understand about go, then the more practiced one is in this task, the more it will support that understanding. Essentially, the thing I mean is like saying "in order to walk, you have to stand up" or "in order to sing you have to open your mouth". Because it`s on that level of obviousness, I feel confident of it. However, I often forget to do it, and so I end up playing go as though singing with closed mouth. I simply didn`t realise it before. Further, simply standing up does not qualify you for the 50km race walk, and neither does opening your mouth make you an opera singer, but who`d deny that they were essential?

As for the stuff about emulating famous players. It is indeed seductive to try to copy people we admire. But with my skills, trying to copy the players I like is comparable to trying to copy Leonardo with a pack of felt-tip pens and frostbitten hands :cry: So, as far as possible, I try just to play the best I can in whatever position I see before me.

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:16 am
by Bill Spight
RobertJasiek wrote:
Tami wrote:the role of words in chess thinking. They start off by being helpful, but eventually they become hindrances by overloading the working memory. [...] go principles are of great help, but they can also be great obstacles.


Bad words are a burden - good words are and remain helpful.

Bad principles are a burden - good principles are and remain helpful.

verbal principles are something to be mastered and then transcended.


It can be an advantage (you furthermore claim "skill") to enable oneself to apply good principles so fluently that one does not need to mentally spell out them explcitily whenever using them. Even then, it is an advantage to be able to recall principles explicitly whenever needed for greater precision.

Grandmasters think in a much more abstract, streamlined way, with minimal use of words to describe the relationships that they process in their minds.


I buy "abstract" and "streamlined", but not "minimal use of words", unless this shall just refer to what you call "transcended".

For a long while, I have noticed how very difficult it is to keep reminding myself of verbal principles while considering a move in a real game situation.


The better the principles are the easier and more fruitful it becomes.

The goal has to be [...] a wordless way that gets straight to the real relationships between stones.


This does not require wordless thinking. Quite contrarily, the better the words and principles become that one's thinking uses (on the literal surface or in a "transcended" manner), the better the "real" relationships between stones can be assessed.


On thinking in words, you two might be interested in the work of the Russian psychologist, Vygotsky ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Vygotsky ), particularly on how language is internalized in cognition. :)

Along those lines, I remember how one of my go opponents in Japan would sometimes talk to himself while reading, "Kou, kou, kou, kou, kou." (Here, here, here, here, here. ;))

Tami wrote:What should a musician do before all else?


Make music. :)

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:32 am
by NoSkill
When you drive you trust your instinct and to focus on the moment, not too far ahead?

Re:

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:36 am
by Bill Spight
EdLee wrote:"When you're eating, what's the most crucial thing to do?"


Swallow. :)

"When you're sleeping, what's the most crucial thing to do?"


Wake up.

"When you're crossing the street, what's the most crucial thing to do?"


Get across.

There is a theme here, isn't there? :)

Re: Re:

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:43 am
by Bill Spight
Tami wrote:
What is one of the commonest remarks people make after being shown a strong move?


"I never thought of that."

That is one reason why, in my game comments here, I often just show an alternative play or a number of them, without going deeply into variations. You can't make the right play if you never even consider it. :)

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:46 am
by snorri
Tami wrote:
When you`re driving a car, what is the most crucial thing to do?


Drive and everything that is required by that. For me, I think it's "pay attention" and that's the one that I think most applies to go. When I look at the games of total beginners and try to remember how I felt then, I really think that most games between beginners are won or lost not based on what they know---because the assumption is they know nothing besides the rules and a couple basic strategy hints---but because they don't pay attention. The know that stones in atari can be captured, but they miss it. They know that groups that are surrounded can get in trouble, but they allow it. When they see the refutation they understand immediately what they missed. I think it's rare to see a total beginner not understand why they lost---that problem comes when they get stronger :).

Another thing I was taught by a driving instructor that might apply to go is "look far." Novice drivers have a bad habit of looking just at the road right in front of the car. They focus too much on controlling the car itself. What my teacher taught me is that this is wrong, because the really dangerous things can only be avoided if you see them far enough ahead of time. So you have to keep your eyes up and take as broad and far a view as you can. The car will stay on the road. Don't worry about that. But if there's an accident up ahead that you're going to have to take time to avoid, you have to see it as soon as you can. If you will, this is a higher level of paying attention---avoiding future surprises. I think the same applies in go. Being surprised is not good for winning. (Although it's great for learning. :))

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:48 am
by Tami
Okay, I think I`ll put you all out of your misery. You probably think I`m just playing at being a mystic or, more like, just larking around.

By the way, most of your answers were not skills, but simply goals. For example, staying alive is a goal, and a very worthwhile one, but it`s not a skill in itself.

Anyway, here`s the thing:

Observation


Who`s going to tell me that a professional does not perform this skill extremely well when it comes to go? Who`s going to deny that a 7d is better than a 1d at it, or that a 5k is better than a 15k at it? I told you it was obvious, but I bet you`ve clicked or placed your move on thousands, even hundreds of thousands, of occasions without even thinking about performing this skill. I know I have.

Congratulations to snorri. His answer was by far the closest. I would not call it "pay attention" because sometimes that can result in "not seeing the wood for the trees", but still :salute:

(In music it is called "listening". No matter how good your singing or playing technique, if you`re not listening, you will not be a good performer.)

Re: Tami's Way

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:14 am
by RobertJasiek
O. is not the most important skill. O. without understanding is as misleading as a purely visual perception of the position (without, e.g., understanding connection). So understanding is a more important skill than O. Where does understanding come from if O. as its origin is by far insufficient? Besides the agreement "from reading", some claim "from self-organisation of subconscious thinking" - I claim "from conscious knowledge".