56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . W O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now I'm pretty sure this is sente... and if it is... I think I've just gained a large endgame advantage.

A quick estimate, and I don't think black can afford komi...

K3 to me was like a declaration of victory, a move of overconfidence.

I think that from here... he'll start to experience that sinking feeling... where the game slowly starts to slip out of your grasp.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this game is pretty much over... i have a feeling he will resign soon
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Violence »

I think the next move here will come Monday.

Didn't expect a move like this.

I'll take some time to read this over the weekend.

But honestly, after the lower left, I think I'm definitely ahead, and I have all the momentum in the game. Victory is close... All that's left is to give him that sinking feeling of helplessness as his point lead disappears.

Just because my screenname is Violence, I hope you don't think that my endgame is horrible. There's violence in endgame too, after all.

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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Magicwand wrote:this game is pretty much over... i have a feeling he will resign soon

Violence wrote:
But honestly, after the lower left, I think I'm definitely ahead, and I have all the momentum in the game. Victory is close...


My quick count puts Magicwand up by 12-15 points. O13 is big for black. I think Violence has to go for a desperate invasion of the lower side.

Anybody got a more accurate count?
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Loons »

Not for Players
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | S S . . . T . . S S S S . . . . . T T |
$$ | S X X O . T . . S S S S S . . . O T T |
$$ | X S X O T T O . X X S @ S X . X O T T |
$$ | X X O O T T T O O X S S X . . X X O T |
$$ | O O O T T T . . . . S S X O Y O X O T |
$$ | . X O Y T . . . . . . . . . O O O T T |
$$ | . . X O O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | S S X . . . . . X S S . . . . . . . . |
$$ | S S . . . . . X S X S S . . . . . . . |
$$ | S S X , . . . X S X S S S S . X . . . |
$$ | S . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O Y O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O Y O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . T Y Y O . X . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . T T T Y O O . . . . . . . X X S S |
$$ | T T Y O T Y . . . X S . . X . X S S S |
$$ | T T O O T . Y O . X S S S S S S S S S |
$$ | T T T T T O O O X . S S S S S S S S S |
$$ | T T T T T T . . . . S S S S S S S S S |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This is how I count the board. If you accept my counting, this is
Black 71 + 4 prisoners = 75
White 62 + 2 prisoners + 6.5 komi = 70.5

Black leads 4.5 points. Hardly a white resign moment, I feel this game could be decided by some good endgame on either side. I realize the edges of my groups of points are a little hazy, when I wasn't sure how things were going to go or when both players had a leg in locally, I gave the area a wide berth.

If you have thoughts on the quality (weaknesses) of my counting, please advise.

Haha, Joaz beat me to the mark and puts my count out of the ballpark.


Could both players please post their point-counts, with a diagram if possible ?
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | b b . . . . . . . c c c . . . . . h h |
$$ | b X X O u . . . . c c c c . . . O h h |
$$ | X b X O u u O . X X c O c X . X O h h |
$$ | X X O O u . . O O X . c X . . X X O h |
$$ | O O O u u . . . . . . . X O X O X O h |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . e X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | e e . . . . . X d X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | e e X , . . . X d X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . e X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O C . . |
$$ | . O O w . X X O . X . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | w w w w . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | w w X O . X . . . X . . . X . X a a a |
$$ | w w O O w . X O . X . . . a a a a a a |
$$ | w w w w w O O O X . a a a a a a a a a |
$$ | w w w w w w w . . . a a a a a a a a a |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

WHITE AREA:
w= 22 + 14 captured points =36
u= 6 + 2 captured points =8
h= 8 + 3 influence points =11
total 55 + 6.5(komi) =61.5

BLACK AREA:
a = 27 points
b = 4 points
c = 10 points
d = 2 points
e = 6 points
captured points = 2 more than white
my influence in the middle = i will say ...10 points+ and some more points if i take marked point and ending aji favors black in my opinion.
total 61+ + +

I am stronger player and am in total control of this game. he will not recover from his point deficit because i am a stronger player than he is.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Loons »

Thanks magicwand that's exactly what I was after
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Harleqin »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Magicwand wrote:this game is pretty much over... i have a feeling he will resign soon

Violence wrote:
But honestly, after the lower left, I think I'm definitely ahead, and I have all the momentum in the game. Victory is close...


My quick count puts Magicwand up by 12-15 points. O13 is big for black. I think Violence has to go for a desperate invasion of the lower side.

Anybody got a more accurate count?


By my count, Black needs to make 5 points more than White from the centre between row 10 and 15 and the right side, assuming that the left side lives. It depends very much on who gets O13/N13 and S6/R7. I think that it is a quite close game now, with Black perhaps ahead a bit, but far from over.


edit:
That is Magicwand for you: counts himself behind by 10 points, adds "10+++" handwaving points, and declares victory. Yes, he has quite some thickness in the centre, but he has yet to prove that he can play endgame.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by gowan »

Magicwand's count undestimates both w and b points. Assuming there is 6.5 Komi I get it that b is behind 10 points or less. Sente is very important. I'd say the biggest area on the board is the right side, where both players can make points. If I were w I'd consider ignoring b's last move and play on the right side.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Revised estimate, counting unhatched chickens:
I'm using a red cross to designate those that were alocated to white that I don't think white gets - in this instance E4, E5, and E6 which white is going to have to fill in an eventual capturing race, and a red circle to designate points that black has a good chance of getting with one move. Black won't get all of them of course, but he will get some.
The reason for these red circles being only black points is that most of white's territories have reached their maximum. Black can expand off of his current territories much more easily than white. The only place where white can expand much is 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | S S . . . T . . S S S S C C . . . T T |
$$ | S X X O . T . . S S S S S C . . O T T |
$$ | X S X O T T O . X X S @ S X . X O T T |
$$ | X X O O T T T O O X S S X . . X X O T |
$$ | O O O T T T . . . . S S X O Y O X O T |
$$ | . X O Y T . . . . . C . . . O O O T T |
$$ | . . X O O B . . C C C C . . . . . a a |
$$ | S S X . . . . C X S S C C . . . . a a |
$$ | S S . . . . . X S X S S C C . . . . . |
$$ | S S X , . . . X S X S S S S . X . . . |
$$ | S . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O Y O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O Y O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . M Y Y O . X . X . . O X O . C |
$$ | . . T T M Y O O . . . . . . . X X S S |
$$ | T T Y O M Y . . . X S C C X . X S S S |
$$ | T T O O T . Y O . X S S S S S S S S S |
$$ | T T T T T O O O X C S S S S S S S S S |
$$ | T T T T T T . . . C S S S S S S S S S |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


With this, I think that my original estimate was too high. I now estimate black at about 10 points ahead. I think that Magicwand's chicken points are real.


EDIT:
I somehow chopped off the first sentence. It noted that I was lazy and that I started with Loons' diagram.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Violence »

To respond to the count request:

There are too many variables for me to count right now. A move on the right is really big, but I might be able to shrink him in sente on the left.

I think no matter what I count, my margin of error will be +/-5, so I will either be overestimating or underestimating, which whill negatively affect my state of mind. I usually only count when I know that my count will be more accurate. For now, I will ignore any counts and just play the best endgame I can. I don't think I'm behind far enough to take some stupid unnecessary risk, so no matter what I count, my endgame shouldn't be affected, right?

I just feel that black has a small point lead right now, but now that I have the momentum, that small lead will be reduced to nothing.

I just have to take care and play a good endgame.

Wish me luck.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I read for a while... I can't figure out what this move actually does... his left side is starting to come under severe attack... I might think about trying to kill it.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . B X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | W X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


More sente profit for now... and also...

Show me your eyes.
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