A few variations.
| Life In 19x19 http://lifein19x19.com/ |
|
| OCA's log http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10474 |
Page 2 of 20 |
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OCA's log |
A few variations. |
|
| Author: | ez4u [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OCA's log |
In your previous game you wrote that you are studying the san-ren-sei. In that case I think your  at "a" is already off the mark. Extending down the right side in front of your san-ren-sei and your opponent's shimari is clearly bigger than the bottom. You should be expecting something like the diagram below as a thematic development of the san-ren-sei. If you are not comfortable with this, then you should have already played  at 6 IMHO. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: Well,.. Read... yes... assimilated... Hi oca, you hit the nail on the head. The assimilation, or understanding, is a continuum and a continuing process — it never ends. Along the journey, we occasionally are rewarded with Eureka moments. Together with long dry spells. About your  in the denizizmir game: I struggled with this kind of mistakesfor quite some time. And I know people (even at 3k) who have been playing for 30-40 years and still don't understand it. Enjoy.
|
|
| Author: | oca [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OCA's log |
Bill Spight wrote: A few variations. Hi Bill, Thanks for your variations, I like  at O10 and your absolute was my first instinct... but then feared  as I can't read the whole sequence (I can't read the whole sequence of "a" either... but I was feeling that I can connect the right side and the top more easily, the game just showed me that was not true.)ez4u wrote: In your previous game you wrote that you are studying the san-ren-sei. In that case I think your at "a" is already off the mark. Extending down the right side in front of your san-ren-sei and your opponent's shimari is clearly bigger than the bottom. You should be expecting something like the diagram below as a thematic development of the san-ren-sei. If you are not comfortable with this, then you should have already played at 6 IMHO.Hi ez4u, Sure !, this is exactly what happenend in my head... a confict between playing a sanrensei and that takamoku that I wanted to reply.... I choosed the sanrensei because I was thinking that I could approach takamoku later... and of course ... wrong  when my opponnent just played the following enclosure I was thinking "oh no... I wanted to play there later later... but you won't have the whole bottom !" and obsessed by the bottom and played at K3 like if that was the only possible move...A more peacefull thinking like "oh... you want the bottom ? just take it... I can still (try) to do bigger at the top" would have been better for me.... To comeback to the sanrensei, at some point in the game, I remember that I was thinking that this game doesn't looked at all like a sanrensei game... so I should have done something wrong at some point... I think this sequence also killed it...  : should be at  hane at the head of two stones in not so great here I think... : Not sure about this one but a cut at "a" may be a least dangerous... Finally, to come back to your diagarm, I would say I like your  , I never considered this move but I like the way it looks...EdLee wrote: oca wrote: Well,.. Read... yes... assimilated... Hi oca, you hit the nail on the head.The assimilation, or understanding, is a continuum and a continuing process — it never ends. Along the journey, we occasionally are rewarded with Eureka moments. Together with long dry spells. About your in the denizizmir game: I struggled with this kind of mistakesfor quite some time. And I know people (even at 3k) who have been playing for 30-40 years and still don't understand it. Enjoy. Thanks Edlee, I wish I can apply all these things I have read... but that's not how it work... patience and tenacity are my best friend here I think. Also my balance between playing / learning was too oriented toward learning, I'm happy as I find more time for playing these days... |
|
| Author: | oca [ Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:09 pm ] | |||
| Post subject: | Re: OCA's log | |||
Hi, two games for me yesterday ! I'm black in both game. Here is the first one, no san-ren-sei this time, I think I'm still doing the same errors... -  : S5 to separate white is better I think.-  to way to small is it ?But ok, I won that one so I'm happy, and I somehow managed all these invaders at the end  , an exercise that I'm not really strong at.I'm more interessed on game 2, an 8 stones handicap, where invaders killed me ! I handeled white 263 with success, but failed to reply to the final invasion at move white 279 and finaly lose the game (I think 282 at S6 may save the group ). I'm still happy of my seki at 228, which finally was not a seki anymore... I had a lot of fun in that game  Any comments very welcome.
|
||||
| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi oca, game 1:  is thin. Jump 1-space to O4 is better. does not work. The move is S4. Study this contact fight. Ridiculous. Huge thank-you move. W should just block S5. equally ridiculous. There is only one move here.See Post 5 again: same note, again. Find the only move here.  strange shape. What's your plan if W ataris Q17 ? (Did you read W Q17 atari ? ) to is not small, but wrong technique.Maybe wrong plan: what are you trying to accomplish here ? Can you find the correct move, instead of your ? bad shape: W hits the vital point, the elephant's eye.See Post 5 again: same note again.  bad habit. Correct local move is just connect E2. bad habit. You should have tenuki'd. very bad. See Post 5 again, same note again. same bad habit as . same bad habit as .
|
|
| Author: | oca [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Hi oca, game 1: is thin. Jump 1-space to O4 is better. does not work. The move is S4. Study this contact fight. Ridiculous. Huge thank-you move. W should just block S5. equally ridiculous. There is only one move here.See Post 19 again: same note, again. Find the only move here.  strange shape. What's your plan if W ataris Q17 ?Hi Edlee, thx for your comments ! is just a miss click... ok... I will study that position hmm I suppose S5 is the only move... At least I considered that move while playing, but for some obscure reasons, I remember very well that I was seeing the game like that at this point : I considered at "a" but I didn't like it as I was thinking that it did not helped that much neither the bottom nor the top/right. so I choose to help the top/right with both at "b" and then at "c" ... but I agree that was not a good choice... Next time I will separate
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi oca, Game 2.  bad habit: correct is capture directly. See also in game 1. wrong local move. Correct local move is just descend H2. wrong for 2 reasons: locally, correct move is just connect solidlyat H2 (which is where should have been, directly).Globally, it is too small.  is gote — you should have tenuki'd.Same bad habit as in game 1. no fighting spirit. Connect at J3 and fight! What's the meaning of this move ? It's almost a pass. almost a pass. almost a pass.This is a 8-stone game. You quickly passed 4 times: , , , .Only 4 more passes, and you would have given all your handi stones back to W.  is gote. You are super thick here. no need to connect, but not a big mistake at your level. almost a pass, your 5th. Why not reply at C10 ? ridiculous. See Post 5 again. What's the correct local move ?
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi oca, you're welcome. oca wrote: I considered One key thing for us to improve is to realize where our thinking is wrong. at "a" but I didn't like it as I was thinking...Maybe now you start to see it for the local situation. |
|
| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OCA's log |
Don't forget to think about the basics: connect your stones, separate your opponent's. |
|
| Author: | ez4u [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OCA's log |
oca wrote: Hi, two games for me yesterday ! I'm black in both game. ... I'm more interessed on game 2, an 8 stones handicap, where invaders killed me ! ... I handeled white 263 with success, but failed to reply to the final invasion at move white 279 and finaly lose the game (I think 282 at S6 may save the group ). I'm still happy of my seki at 228, which finally was not a seki anymore... I had a lot of fun in that game Any comments very welcome. If you tenuki after 263, what can White do? If answering is not necessary, we can't call it success. You are correct that 282 at S6 would have left White unable to continue. Black would have more liberties than White.  Your comment on 228 isn't clear. Do you realize that you killed the corner with 242? White's shortage of liberties means death... |
|
| Author: | oca [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OCA's log |
Hi Uberdude, "Don't forget to think about the basics: connect your stones, separate your opponent's." Sure, I will try to improve that. I think 9x9 is also a good exercice for that. Hi ez4u, "If you tenuki after 263, what can White do? If answering is not necessary, we can't call it success." That's just I usually die at each invasion, but that's right 246 was needed... so that's more a fail in this case ... "Do you realize that you killed the corner with 242?" Of course... Not...  That was seki for me... I was thinking that 6 was unconditionally alive... but not so in the corner... as you showed in your post. @Edlee Lots of things for me to look at ...Let's start with that "connect/separte" topic. So in Game 1 : 65 - bad shape: W hits the vital point, the elephant's eye. 77 - very bad. See Post 5 again, same note again. I can see the separation and the elephant's eye, but I don't see what would be better  ...Tryed that but that don't look any better to me... Now about these moves : 73 - bad habit. You should have tenuki'd. 91 - same bad habit as I tryed to avoid that situation : I don't know exactly what to do in that case... maybe that  ? |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi oca, oca wrote: I can see the separation and the elephant's eye, but I don't see what would be better Good observation. ...There are two different issues here: (1) recognition; (2) finding a better move. Please see also posts 41 and 43 of this thread. oca wrote:
I considered Currently, the recognition phase is to help you see that (a) is the only move.
at "a" but I didn't like it as I was thinking... |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: Tryed that but that don't look any better to me... Hi oca, you are correct: this is not better, since you are still making bad shape for Black.
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: I tryed to avoid that situation: Hi oca, this is also bad. You are still making bad shape for White.
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi oca, We start from a basic example of a broken shape: oca wrote:
I considered Here, (a) is the only move. Recognition: B (a) makes a broken shape for W.
at "a" but I didn't like it as I was thinking... |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi oca, Here is another basic example of a broken shape: oca wrote: I tryed to avoid that situation: Recognition: do you see the broken shape for W in your variation ?
|
|
| Author: | RBerenguel [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OCA's log |
Oca, see this. It will be very handy
|
|
| Author: | oca [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Hi oca, Here is another basic example of a broken shape: oca wrote: I tryed to avoid that situation: Recognition: do you see the broken shape for W in your variation ?Hi Edlee, Yes I see that broken shape for white I showed that situation to show what I was afraid of if I was black... white to invade and live [edit] or at least try to...[/edit]. but I just saw that  doesn't work... white should at least fix "a" first... and here I suppose I can somehow manage the invaders with a move like  @RBerenguel, Hi, thanks for the link ! |
|
| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
oca wrote: I showed that situation to show what I was afraid of if I was black... white to invade and live [edit] or at least try to...[/edit]. but I just saw that doesn't work... white should at least fix "a" first... and here I suppose I can somehow manage the invaders with a move like Actually white doesn't need to fix "a" first: those stones are no longer important and can be sacrificed: helping the invaders is a much better idea. Btw it's interesting that you feared that 1st line invasion of white as it's not something I would even consider. I'm not even sure cutting it off is a good idea for black: it might be better to just fall back or tenuki as it's small. Note in your variation you played hane with 77 at 78: that doesn't work as white cuts. I hope you can see that just extending is BRILLIANT for black. What is white achieving with this crawling? Trying to win five-in-row? Something to note is your n4 q4 stones are weak and vulnerable because you missed the hugely important separation at s5 for move 19 so getting them connected and strong like this whilst white crawls along the 1st line is great for you. That 1st line move is an underplay for white and he could do much more severe things like L3 invasion to attack n4 and maybe even g3 cut later or h3 peep. |
|
| Page 2 of 20 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|
