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Re: direction of play

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:45 pm
by ethanb
entropi wrote: Any specific literature suggestion for this haengma thing?


Think Like a Pro: Haengma is a little tough but very good. Check out the sample pages and see what you think.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY201.html

The first example for that book is very similar to something that would appear in "Whole Board Thinking in Joseki" by Mr. Yang, but this particular joseki is not in the books because sadly (as I understand it) the original publisher went under before the 4-4 volume was produced. But Slate and Shell bought the leftovers of their stock when the publisher entered bankruptcy and you can still order it from them.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY002.html - 3-4 point, low approach variations
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY003.html - 3-4 point, high approach variations

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:44 am
by entropi
ethanb wrote:
entropi wrote: Any specific literature suggestion for this haengma thing?


Think Like a Pro: Haengma is a little tough but very good. Check out the sample pages and see what you think.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY201.html

The first example for that book is very similar to something that would appear in "Whole Board Thinking in Joseki" by Mr. Yang, but this particular joseki is not in the books because sadly (as I understand it) the original publisher went under before the 4-4 volume was produced. But Slate and Shell bought the leftovers of their stock when the publisher entered bankruptcy and you can still order it from them.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY002.html - 3-4 point, low approach variations
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY003.html - 3-4 point, high approach variations


Thank you!
From the sample pages of the "think like a pro" book it looks indeed like a good problem book.
But on the other hand my first impression is that it gives the solution to a problem and then says that it is good haengma, rather than explaining how the haengma concept would give me the hint to come up with that move.
It looks like solving a shape problem and calling the result "good haengma" instead of "good shape". At my level, this approach does not bring me much further because I don't have yet a feeling of what the concept of haengma is good for. But of course this is just the first impression from the sample pages.

Maybe a more basic book that uses the concept of haengma itself for explaining the correct moves, would be more useful for me at that stage.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:12 am
by tapir
ethanb wrote:
entropi wrote: Any specific literature suggestion for this haengma thing?


Think Like a Pro: Haengma is a little tough but very good. Check out the sample pages and see what you think.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY201.html

The first example for that book is very similar to something that would appear in "Whole Board Thinking in Joseki" by Mr. Yang, but this particular joseki is not in the books because sadly (as I understand it) the original publisher went under before the 4-4 volume was produced. But Slate and Shell bought the leftovers of their stock when the publisher entered bankruptcy and you can still order it from them.

http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY002.html - 3-4 point, low approach variations
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSYY003.html - 3-4 point, high approach variations


What I learned from "Think Like a Pro: Haengma" is mostly how crucial (and surprisingly unknown to me) the post-joseki moves and possibilities really are and how absurd it is to play joseki without thinking about future potential all the time.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:07 am
by John Fairbairn
I don't have yet a feeling of what the concept of haengma is good for.


There are several possible answers. Here's one. I'll the delete the usual perhaps, maybes, mights and so on. You can flavour the resutling dogmatism to your own taste.

Amateurs, and western amateurs in particular, obsess about the opponent's moves, They want to "punish" this move, want to know what to do about that move. They want to invade the ooponent's area. They don't want to defend their own territory until the last possible moment, and then wonder why it turns out be too late or to cause collateral damage. They want to kill rather than live. Living by killing is the ultimate joy.

There is another way. Haengma. In this tradition, you worry about your own moves. You take the view that if your own moves work together perfectly, you don't have to worry about the opponent. He will either make perfect moves, too, in which case you were never likely to beat him anyway, but at least you'll got a draw. Or he will make bad moves. Since bad moves punish themselves (e.g. by becoming overconcentrated or short of liberties) you will win by having better percentages plays (boring isn't it? Unless you like winning, of course).

In practice you are not likely to be perfect yourself, and there are times when you fall behind and feel obliged to invade. But there is a huge difference between counting then invading to catch up and invading just because you can't stand the opponent having a sizeable territory.

Haengma differs from the usual good shape concept(katachi) that is a perennial favourite with western amateurs until they become disillusioned with it. They become disillusioned because they treat it as a static concept - making pretty shapes such as the table or avoiding bad shapes such as empty triangles. Because suji (flow) has not been covered well in English, they have not added this dynamic element. Haengma is really just katachi + suji. But it comes from a one-stop shop, and so is more attractive to some for that reason. But the presentations of haengma in English seem, on the whole, to be rather fuzzy, and in particular don't identify the two components of shape and flow all that well. They seem to concentrate on the flow aspect, which is possibly because of awareness of the underlying meaning of haeng (moving).

If you want to learn haengma, what you are being taught is "how do I think about developing my stones?" This is fairly advanced.

If you have learned just katachi in the past, you have been taught "how do I make efficient shapes?" You have only learned the most trivial aspect. To make it really useful you need to add suji or go on to a full course of haengma.

If, however, you have trouble with the way hanegma is presented, you may find it useful to break it down and learn katachi and suji separately. Learn first how to make efficient shapes and then learn how to develop them. When you can put the two together, a pro will tell you you've got good haengma or good suji. But you'll know that anyway because you'll find go an awful lot easier.

Specifically, good haengma gives you groups that are robust and safe, that can't be bullied, that are flexible, that can move into other areas easily, that occupy or influence space (i.e. potential territory).

It may sound odd, but I've found that one of the best laboratories for observing haengma is games by Japanese women in fast tournaments. Because of the short time limits they rely heavily on haengma instead of reading. But for the same reason they make mistakes, and you can observe the results. They are strong enough to play good haengma/suji most of the time but not quite strong enough to play in a more free-for-all way. Japanese writers often refer to games by female pros as full of fighting - I don't think that's true as the intent to fight is not really there. I think what they are witnessing is what I have just described - a haengma contest.

PS I was talking to T Mark today about the question of telling pro play from amateur play, which he's good at, on the basis of haengma. I told him I had already mentioned the 3-D aspect of shapes which is stronger in pro play (I believe). He agreed but put more emphasis on what he called "sequences". Pros play complete sequences, amateurs don't. I'm sure he is just stressing the flow/development aspect of suji/haengma, which is natural for a strong player. (I have asked him to consider posting his own views BTW.)

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:40 am
by Kirby
Another thing I find useful in understanding haengma is to look at different haengma problems.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:49 am
by Chew Terr
Kirby wrote:Another thing I find useful in understanding haengma is to look at different haengma problems.


From where?

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:50 am
by daal
entropi wrote:Any specific literature suggestion for this haengma thing?

For a brief introduction, you can also check out this on Sensei's:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?HaengMaTutorialForBeginners

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:38 am
by usagi
Haengma is hiraki in Japanese, and I suppose it goes without saying that it is given a somewhat lighter treatment. It's bad advice to not focus on direction of play. The best book I've read on Direction if play is "Perceiving Direction of Play" by Kobayashi Satoru, and frankly, it is given an A-1 treatment. I would have to say "perceiving the direction of play" is written for low dans (1d, 2d or 3d), but it starts off so simply and beautifully even a 5k would benefit.

Anyways.

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Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:15 pm
by John Fairbairn
Haengma is hiraki in Japanese


No it isn't.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:27 pm
by daal
C'mon. Haengma is pretty much the only Korean word to establish itself in the Western go mind. We don't need a Japanese word for it. Anyway, John has already mentioned that the idea of Haengma would need two Japanese words: katachi - good shape, and suji - flow to express it.

the Korean Baduk Association describes haengma as: "A term that considers a placement of a stone as a movement in relation to stones already played." and mentions that this dynamic concept was invented in Korea. Maybe when the Japanese want to talk about haengma they also say "haengma."

Re: direction of play

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:19 am
by TMark
[/quote]
PS I was talking to T Mark today about the question of telling pro play from amateur play, which he's good at, on the basis of haengma. I told him I had already mentioned the 3-D aspect of shapes which is stronger in pro play (I believe). He agreed but put more emphasis on what he called "sequences". Pros play complete sequences, amateurs don't. I'm sure he is just stressing the flow/development aspect of suji/haengma, which is natural for a strong player. (I have asked him to consider posting his own views BTW.)[/quote]

I remember, vaguely, that someone was asked to define jazz, and the reply was something like if you need to define it, you don't know what it is. Many years ago (1987 to be precise) I wandered into the computer room at the European Congress in Grenoble. Anders Kierulf was displaying the replay of professional games on a computer and I looked at a game on screen and commented that it was an old, classical game. Anders became very interested in how, after looking at a position for no more than 1 or 2 seconds, I had been able to recognise the style of play. This was several years before I started recording games for GoGoD, so I only was relying on my previous over-the-board study. I had no idea; I could just recognise that shape is old, that is new and that is a messy amateur game. How do you recognise a familiar face in a crowd of strangers? You just do!

Best wishes.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:42 am
by Stable
So what you are saying TMark is that we should all buy GoGoD, sit down and work our way through all the games therein. :salute:
OK guys n gals, I guess I'll see you all in a decade... :cool:

Re: direction of play

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:32 am
by TMark
Actually, for study purposes, the professionals recommend studying lots of... tsumego! The reason is to get you to practice your reading, which is the weakest part of the amateurs' skills. Not that we don't include a collection of problems and a program to view them on the disk, but playing through games is recommended by fewer pros. It is something that I like to do and I have fun compiling the best pro database in the West. There is a certain stage in your study where it is also helpful to play through games and that is where we come in.

Best wishes.

Re: direction of play

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:26 am
by usagi
John Fairbairn wrote:
Haengma is hiraki in Japanese


No it isn't.


Well then, John, what's the difference?

Here are some examples of hiraki;

nobi, kosumi, ikken tobi, nikken tobi, keima, ogeima, yongen takabiraki (and so forth)

You may note in your wisdom that these are all examples of haengma. I'm sure you are familiar with all the classic examples as mentioned above.

you should probably be a little less confrontational and explain yourself; I've read "this is haengma" and a number of other books on the subject. Hiraki is haengma. Although, according to Kim Sung-Rae haengma is mainly involved in jumping up into the center; hiraki is usually considered as a movement along the side, but it is essentially the same thing, the study of how the stones move. If that is what you meant then you should probably have clarified that haengma is a subset of hiraki :) The way you said it makes it sound like you think haengma and hiraki are different subjects.

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Re: direction of play

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:02 am
by John Fairbairn
you should probably be a little less confrontational and explain yourself;


How ineffably rude you are. I have spent many paragraphs above explaining the concept and you come in with a one-liner ignorantly contradicting me (and others) and telling me I'm the one who's confrontational. All I'm doing is issuing a swift correction for the benefit of others who may be misled. These mistakes sometimes end up on SL. I don't owe you any tuition in Japanese, nor do I owe you my time.

However, since I am not as rude as you I will quote the definition of hiraki for you from a Japanese go dictionary (and can quote likewise from several more).

3線または4線で自分の石から横に二間ないし五間の間隔で打つ手。一間及び六間以上に普通ヒラキとはいわない。

Since you clearly do not know Japanese I will even translate it for you. A move played sideways from your own stones on the the third of fourth line at a distance of two to five spaces. If the distance is one space or six or more it is not usual to call it hiraki.

Furthermore, I am only familiar with nikken tobi as another common mistake.