Life In 19x19

Many of you use a three-row poem-like form. Does this have a name and requirements for its form?

RobertJasiek wrote:Many of you use a three-row poem-like form. Does this have a name and requirements for its form?

As per the specification of the first post, people are using Haiku. (See also the wikipedia page on Haiku in English)

Ah, I read as creative writing what was declaration:) Let me try:



Infinite universe
Black and white
Shared in peace

Robert, did you actually read what a haiku was? The 3 lines have to contain respectively 5,7 and 5 syllables - yours has 6, 3 and 3.

I notice people aren't following the 17 mora thing - is that generally deprecated or just not worth the hassle?

robinz wrote:Robert, did you actually read what a haiku was? The 3 lines have to contain respectively 5,7 and 5 syllables - yours has 6, 3 and 3.

Are you sure this is true? Firstly, I'm certain they are syllable-weights, or mora, rather than syllables. So "hello" has 3 because of the long "o" (short syllables have one, long syllables have two, more or less). So it's normally 17 of these rather than 17 syllables.

Secondly, I also understood that 5, 7 and 5 are not rigid rules, just traditionally most common. There are plenty of examples of Japanese Haiku that don't adhere to this (maybe it's the equivalent of splitting infinitives?)

EDIT: e.g. random example:

Harleqin wrote:When the board now looks
like anytime before this,
your move was not right.

When (1) the (1) board (2) now (2) looks (1) -- 7
like (2) anytime (4) before (3) this (1) -- 10
your (2) move (2) was (1) not (1) right (2) -- 8

So this becomes 25 mora as opposed to 17?

robinz wrote:Robert, did you actually read what a haiku was?

I even read how it is in English and that there counts are not followed strictly, if at all, except maybe for the upper limit 17. Poem formalism kills contents and spirit.

OK, this is getting a bit too technical for me now with regards to language

I've always regarded haiku in English as being lines of specifically 5, then 7, then 5 syllables (I'm not quite sure what a "mora" is), which the example you quoted from Harleqin fits (as do all the others in this thread, as far as I can see). I'm sure that this form can be changed if you're after actual literary merit, but just as a pure bit of linguistic fun I thought the 5/7/5 syllable pattern was fairly universal

robinz wrote:OK, this is getting a bit too technical for me now with regards to language

I've always regarded haiku in English as being lines of specifically 5, then 7, then 5 syllables (I'm not quite sure what a "mora" is), which the example you quoted from Harleqin fits (as do all the others in this thread, as far as I can see). I'm sure that this form can be changed if you're after actual literary merit, but just as a pure bit of linguistic fun I thought the 5/7/5 syllable pattern was fairly universal

IIRC, it's a convention in normal English to use 17 syllables, but it's a misinterpretation and not correct with respect to traditional Japanese Haiku, which are supposed to have 17 mora (moras?, morae?).

The 5/7/5 is a lot more flexible, here are some Haiku examples from the Wikipedia page that obey neither rule:

Snow in my shoe
Abandoned
Sparrow's nest -- Jack Kerouac

out of the water
out of itself
bass
picking bugs
off the moon -- Nick Virgilio

an icicle the moon drifting through it -- Matsuo Allard

When I try to do them, I try to adhere to mora rather than syllables, I try to adhere to 3 lines, have some ambiguity, and try to have what I interpret to be a cutting word. However, being too prescriptive I think is the equivalent of "White 8 is bad"

EDIT: PS Robert, I rather liked yours

RobertJasiek wrote:In the beginning was GoGod.

And GoGod created the universe.

And the universe was an infinite two-dimensional grid.

GoGod regarded the universe and said: "It is good."

And GoGod created two colours - black and white.

GoGod regarded his creation and said: "Everything is equal and it is good."

And he spoke: "Look - this is the universe. Go and share life in peace."

And GoGod knew that all was good.



1997-01-28

Condensed to haiku:

GoGod created all,
Infinite grid, black and white.
Go, share life in peace!

Jasiek's poem appears
To have its syllables in arrears.
So lets try another kind:
It's easier to mind,
And more natural to western ears.

robinz wrote:Robert, did you actually read what a haiku was? The 3 lines have to contain respectively 5,7 and 5 syllables - yours has 6, 3 and 3.

Here's the criteria for an haiku in English according to wikipedia:

• Use of three lines of up to 17 syllables;
  Use of a season word (kigo);
  Use of a cut or kire (sometimes indicated by a punctuation mark) to compare two images implicitly.

But, for a bunch of go geeks, I think we're doing pretty good

On the whole, I tend to agree with what Robert says:

RobertJasiek wrote: I even read how it is in English and that there counts are not followed strictly, if at all, except maybe for the upper limit 17. Poem formalism kills contents and spirit.

It's the spirit and content that counts; no need to bother with the rules.

Mind ko --
Despite meanders
reach the sea.

I think the problem is that the distinction between short and long sounds is not observed so tightly in English as in Japanese, so syllables it is. And also, if you counted terminal consonants as an extra mora, it would be hard to write anything. (I think if you look for translations of tanka, the translators are trying to hit 5-7-5-7-7 syllables, not beats.)

There's precedent for this... when English poets adapted classical poetic forms to the vernacular, they replaced metric patterns of short and long sounds with metric stress patterns. Such are the perils of cultural hybridization.

Westernized haiku
Deep-fried vegetables
O tempura! O moras!

And GoGod knew that all was good.

No. White 8 is bad.