So, we're going to play the 5-4. It has some interesting continuations, none of which I'm going to show you. Reading practice is good.
I want to play something more or less normal, but still leave things open for some fun later. The 5-4 gives that opportunity. The general idea, though, is to try and play for some influence.
However, there's something to keep in mind ... tengen limits our influence as well. We don't want to fall behind in territory, because we will NOT be making very many points in the center (unless we kill the tengen ... not an easy feat).
For Observers only:
This is an interesting exercise for captains, I think. Especially with DDK and close-to-DDK soldiers, I hope I'll be able to balance a competitive game with good lessons for my soldiers. I don't want to give too much to them, of course. I want them to think about their moves, and I hope my comments will provide them with ideas for improvement.
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:15 pm
by Mnemonic
WIC
The more I think about it the more I believe that is the only choice black has. It makes miai out of the two corners that are left and, because of its symmetrical nature, makes it hard to exploit. Following the corner-sides-center doctrine I think the correct play would be at (a), but then white would get a nice looking moyo by playing in the other corner. Therefore I propose This is also a Trigger to move things along: if blacks next play is the opposite 44 I nominate C6
The reason being that it makes black less likely to play (a), because that would mean he would have a group in his territory. That means we might have a chance to play it ourselves . If black tenukis I plan on double approaching.
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:26 am
by robinz
WIC:
Rafa, you just repeated my nomination - I think the idea is to give the captain 3 different choices, even if you happen to agree with one of the previous nominations. Still, it's too late now, and no damage has been done (although I suspect Marcus may disagree...)
Far be it from me to argue with our captain, who's a good 7/8 stones stronger than me, but I think he's far too scared of the tengen stone. As far as I can see, its only real concrete value, at this stage, is in making all ladders which head for the centre work for black. That's a bit annoying, but hardly the end of the world - we just have to take care to avoid any joseki or other sequences involving ladders. Although, we could always have fun by first playing an attachment to tengen as a ladder-breaker
I take the point that we're going to need to take some territory at some point, but we're guaranteed to get at least one more corner, and can always play 3-4 or even 3-3 in that if we're desparate for some quick cash. (Or, unless black approaches early, play the 3-4 underneath our 5-4.) I just think it's a bit ridiculous, at least for kyu players like ourselves, to get scared and have to think about treading ridiculously carefully after black's move 1
I can't believe we're already on page 2 of the thread before 2 moves were played, for one. And it appears that we have no observer comments yet, so it seems we've put off the audience as well. Shame, as I would have thought topazg would have a comment or two - he seems to like these kind of weird fuseki
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:50 am
by SinK
My nomination:
Stick with the plan offer them a diagonal. 4-4 makes more sense now that they've played a weird, high move that I'm unfamiliar with. The flexibility allows for maximum options after White responds.
BIC (I assume this means black team? I don't know the acronym...):
3 moves in and this game already rates about 9/10 on my bizarro meter.
I'm inclined to think a 4-4 play is inconsistent with tengen, since the idea of tengen is to fight but a 4-4 wants to build influence. Also white played an interesting move, so us playing a simple move seems to send white the wrong message. It's like they called our bluff and we folded. If we wanted a simple game, tengen seems like the wrong choice to start off with.
With that said though, I really have no idea what a good move is at this point. I'm torn between just taking their corner out from under them, or playing a 3-4 in one of the open corners. Also, my impression is that the top will be more important than the right given the direction that white played their stone, so I'd prefer d16 to q4 for a 4-4.
I think my choice is this (a being the other move I was considering):
if they take the corner we approach from the left and force white to live in the corner or run... right out towards our tengen stone! Maybe 7 at x to threaten their eye space a bit more severly, but I don't like white playing at 7 in that case. Still eyeing the invasion at a soon.
threeve wrote:BIC (I assume this means black team? I don't know the acronym...):
BIC/WIC = Black/White Internal Chat
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:29 pm
by Mnemonic
I may not be able to post in the next few dayes, manly because my computer fried (meaning: I empied a pint of beer over it and it doesn't work now ) I will try to get a new one until friday (mainly because I have an exame that day and all my learning matirials are saved on that harddrive. Now I know the reason why prewios generations valiued "paper" (<- the new sarcastic meaning) )
(I apologise for my spelling mistakes . This is what it looks like when I don't ues correction)
After white 2, white has a good corner, and black's stone is too close to white's strength. Also, white is too settled for my tastes, as we're looking for a fighting game.
This isn't a bad move, but I feel like this is too territorial. I'd actually really like a 4-4 stone in this corner, though. 4-4 stones get influence, which helps a great deal in fighting (influence != moyo). We don't want to be playing for large moyos, but influence is great for the fights we're going to start .
We're going for this move, it prevents white from developing their 5-4 stone along its primary direction of play (the right side). It's also high, which will help us in fights to come.
This 3-4 seems good to me. There are few joseki from an approach which end in sente for black, so they will probably play a move in the last corner, allowing us to complete the shimari - which then seems to be facing the right way to potentially give us a very promising position along the top.
In more general terms, I think a 3-4 is probably the right way to go here, as Marcus has already indicated that we need to think about taking some territory soon, which a 4-4 or 4-5, or even 3-5, don't really do so well. And a 3-3 just feels wrong - although I have no experience in playing it (it's always felt horribly unambitious to me), so perhaps I'm unfairly dismissing it. As to the choice of this corner rather than the other, I'm not sure our 5-4 will work so well in a bitty diagonal fuseki.
This is all off the top of my head, though - I think I've chosen a decent move, but I'm sure there are plenty more good ones (perhaps better ones) for Mnemonic and Rafa to suggest instead
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:58 pm
by Mnemonic
WIC
I will go with a cross position play. The reason being that it will limit blacks’ moyo potential. As a specific play I choose he 44 point because it is influence oriented and by being symmetrical black has a harder time approaching it. I nominate D4
I say we let black make that triangular thing and take the corner at the top with 1.
Black´s moyo is not threatning, besides this way we can build up the top
Okay team, I chose the 3-4 in this direction. It's harder for Black to approach this stone, since to do so means jumping into the top area. The other 3-4 stone gives Black a nice approach later.
As for D4, it's an interesting idea. However, I'm not fond of allowing Black to take opposite corners plus the tengen. That's simply my personal preference.
We've begun up on the top of the board, and I expect Black to take the remaining corner. It's time for us to think about how we want to deal with Black's formation. So far, there's enoguh room to invade later if we need to, but a premature invasion is going to cost us a lot, I think. Throw some ideas around between the three of you and see what ideas you can come up with.
Observers only:
To be honest, when/where to start an invasion/reduction is one of my weaker points. We'll see how this goes ... once more into the breach, my friends!
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:49 pm
by robinz
WIC:
I'm slightly surprised Marcus has chosen this direction. As he says, it does make a black approach less attractive than with the move I suggested, but the reason for this is that our shimari is (I think) considerably more attractive for us in that case than for the move chosen. And, as I said, I'm not sure that black can approach straight away and keep sente (certainly not with the high approach - although I'm not familiar with the low approach to a 3-4, so perhaps that would have been possible for black). Marcus: if there's more explanation that you'd like to add to explain your choice to us soldiers, then feel free
As for future plans, let's wait to see what black does - I too expect a play in the final corner, but there are a few different plays black could try there. But the obvious moves which come to mind are simply completing our own asymmetrical corners - E17 would be the stereotypical move (but, as I implied above, I don't like it as the left-hand side doesn't look likely to be the "interesting" side, to borrow a phrase from strong players which I don't really understand ), with E16 perhaps being possible, and Q17 also being in the running. Or perhaps a more ambitious (but thinner) enclosure aiming at making more of the top side - F17 or even G17, perhaps?
As Marcus says, I don't think we want to go about invading black's framework straight away. Let's at the very least get ours sorted out in some way first
Reading practice is good.
is the only choice black has. It makes miai out of the two corners that are left and, because of its symmetrical nature, makes it hard to exploit. Following the corner-sides-center doctrine I think the correct play would be at (a), but then white would get a nice looking moyo by playing in the other corner. Therefore I propose 
This is also a 
. If black tenukis I plan on double approaching.
) I will try to get a new one until friday (mainly because I have an exame that day and all my learning matirials are saved on that harddrive. Now I know the reason why prewios generations valiued "paper"