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95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3105

Page 2 of 10

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:16 am
by daniel_the_smith
Balmung should "second guess" himself more often...

With a third-line stone there, the bottom is uninteresting. And approaching 3-4 is usually more important than approaching 4-4 (since you can close an asymmetrical corner with one move, but it takes two to close a symmetrical one).

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:14 am
by balmung
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Plans have changed. If I attack the corner now my opponent gets sente and can stengthen this groups major weakness He jumped one to far
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B1cm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I feel this is the option he will choose. It does destroy his points, but I don't get to split his stones like me move was aiming to.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:23 am
by topazg
@balmung:
You say he jumped one too far -- FWIW, White played the joseki move :)

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:43 am
by Aphelion
Should I settle for the wall, or should I try to kill this?

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:56 am
by Loons
Some attempt at explaining things. Anyone can look.
Here's an example.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Modern Style
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w3: can tenuki. Followup invasion is not urgent.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Older joseki
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White generally must add :w3: . The followup invasion is urgent. So, :b2: was likely sente because of white's thinner (ie longer) extension.

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:16 am
by EdLee
Not for either player until specified, possibly much later.
balmung wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is what black wants. The bottom influence is to much to good to be true.
Wrong. All the bottom B stones are on the 3rd line, so B has very little influence there.
For the same reason, B does not want to spend yet another 3rd line move on the bottom;
:b7: would be much bigger at (a) instead.
balmung wrote:White gets some decent compensation on the right, but I gain alot from this joseki.
Wrong. Up to :b5:, everything is joseki, and neither side has much advantage; the result is equal.

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:45 am
by EdLee
Not for either player.
:b13: seems premature (or jealous?); probably much bigger at (a) or (b) instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
W can simply block with :w2: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. X . . . . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . O . . |
$$. . . 2 . . . |
$$. . 4 3 1 . . |
$$. . 5 6 . . . |
$$. . . O . . . |
$$. . . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$---------------[/go]
Compare:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. X . . . . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . B . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . O . . |
$$. . . , . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . O . . . |
$$. . . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$---------------[/go]

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:03 am
by EdLee
Not for either player.
balmung wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . @ . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Plans have changed. If I attack the corner now...
My understanding is to be able to attack a group, said group must be weak to begin with,
and since neither :wc: nor :ws: is weak, B cannot attack either W corner -- approach, yes; attack, no.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:01 am
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Yea, I read a bit and confirmed my suspicions that I can just kill this. The lack of a black stone at R13 means this invasion simply doesn't work. From first impressions I'd say his fighting isn't quite 1-3k.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:10 am
by daniel_the_smith
That last black move is the very definition of jealousy.

The board is WIDE OPEN. Why play in a three-line area when there are 10 line areas available? Even if it was a reasonable invasion!

Re:

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:45 am
by emeraldemon
Expanding a little on what EdLee and Loons wrote: If W ignores :b1: , :b3: is tesuji:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. X . . . . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . O . . |
$$. . . , . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . 4 3 . . |
$$. . . O . . . |
$$. . . . O 5 . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$---------------[/go]
So White usually jumps up, and then I think descending is good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. X . . . . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . 2 . O . . |
$$. . . , . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . 3 . . |
$$. . . O . . . |
$$. . . . O 4 . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$---------------[/go]
There's still useful aji in :b3: , but I think White is ok here.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:56 am
by Violence
Jeez, this reminds me of something I would've played at the level of 9k, I'd just come out swinging.

I hope Balmung is confident in his reading.

As someone else pointed out, this is not even the correct invasion point.

To invade at all suggests that black's Go these days is... somewhat fundamentally troubled.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:42 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . , . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . O . 2 . |
$$. . . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . , X . . |
$$. X . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$---------------[/go]
Local shape, just out of interest.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:45 pm
by balmung
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I hope I read this out correctly. White has two weaknesses in the shape which I'm about to exploit

The first 2 is mandatory or a is because white does not want black to play a and connect

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B1cm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
3 is how I get out if after he defends the first weakness
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B1cm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O 3 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O 5 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
but I think he will hane from the other side and I have strategy to build an upper right moyo while sacrificing the invasion stones.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:50 pm
by topazg
Balmung:
balmung wrote:
I have strategy to build an upper right moyo while sacrificing the invasion stones.
Why did you invade here if you intend on sacrificing them - why did you decide not just to build the upper right moyo?
All times are UTC-07:00
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