Life In 19x19

Mark356 wrote:More importantly, it is sente: I expect White to play near c10 very soon.

Nope. It's way too early in the opening; almost nothing is sente right now (thus the proverb no ko threats in the opening).

What an interesting opening already. I've opted for my normal way of approaching the shimari extension obstruction (or whatever you'd call it). Local expectations are as follows:

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[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, why this side? Well, firstly, both corners are interested in the left hand side. Actually, my "interest" calculations give Black's interest a bit higher than White's (I consider a shimari's secondary extension to be half an interest, and a full interest if already extended the other side, and a 4-4 as having a full interest. A shimari's primary direction I consider 1.5 interests ), so the urgency of a play on the left seems pretty high. The top is also interesting, though slightly less so because Black's shimari is not targeting it quite as strongly as the right. However, as it's a high stone at P16, it's fairly important to get to the top first.

The bottom edge is relatively uninteresting to both sides right now. If White completes his shimari in the lower right it becomes relatively important, and I genuinely considered this move, as miai of the edges is fine for me, especially when I get a sort of double wing formation from doing so which would be nice. However, it increases the interest in the bottom enough that Black might play at the bottom first, and then we end up with this position on the left anyway. Not only that, but even a short approach from this shimari increases in value of Black has a stone on the bottom edge. As a result, and as Black still has to decide on how to handle the lower right, I'm going to leave it for now, and consider my options of what I do with that 4-5 dependent on Black's approach. Because Black has a low shimari in the bottom left with respect to the bottom edge, the urgency of that area feels lower right now.

Nice and simple; now (a) and (b) are miai:

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[go]$$Bm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since White jumped one point farther than I'd thought, the situation has changed. If I jump in like so, now Black and White both have a weak group, and now I exploit that immediately. This is a somewhat nonstandard attack, and it may strengthen White, but I think I can get something from it.

What do you expect to gain out of this attack? Can you show sequences?

I thoroughly disagree with the idea that the way to 'punish' a slightly longer extension than normal is to jump straight in, particularly when the top is still so open. Firstly, I'm not convinced that White's last move was an overplay, and even if it was, you frequently don't need to jump in to exploit its weaknesses. This is particularly true early in the opening where there are simply so many big points left on the board. To jump in without a clear plan reeks of impatience and jealousy. This is a lesson very pertinent to many ddks and weak sdks.

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[go]$$Bcm9 An alternative
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 3 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 4 O 6 . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White could also play like above and the marked move becomes ideally positioned, with white taking sente. I'm not sure that this is best, but this simply demonstrates that Black's move in no way "punishes" White, at least locally.

Hmmm, I'm really pretty happy with this. This is all kind of aji-keshi for Black. If he wants to attack me, why make me stronger?

Still, my move is a bit odd looking too, so it deserves a bit of explanation (in spoiler)

Normally, playing into the hane around the head of two stones is a bad thing shape-wise, although there are common josekis that do it explicitly (for example, involving contacting the high approach to a 3-4 stone). So, why here? Well, I've just taken the key shape point locally. If I hane:

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[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 a . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The cut at "a" is very hard to make work, and White simply must defend his position, allowing Black to force White on the outside and keep sente. White's eyespace here is very low, and is still not settled, so the potential for long term discomfort is high. If I extend (normally a good way of keeping sente), this shape point is still upsettingly good for Black, fixing his group and leaving White without two clear eyes. I could continue my hane as follows:

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[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 9 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 6 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But here, neither "a" nor "b" are satisfying. The outside influence from "b" doesn't seem to have anywhere to go, and the loss of allowing Black that cut is quite large. Likewise, White connecting at "a" is overconcentrated and I'm not convinced two eyes are formed, let alone the annoyance of Black being able to cut strongly at "b" himself.

So, instead, I opt for a sequence that settles my group completely and undermines his base:

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[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now it is relatively hard for Black to seal that group in, and impossible to do so in sente. "a" will be a big move potentially depending on what happens on the bottom edge, and "b" isn't tiny either as it is sente for Black due to my group stability. That's not to say I'd respond locally. If Black plays immediately at "b", I'd respond with "a", but it is still something that has reasonable enough value. The problem is, I need to avoid reductions like this:

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[go]$$Wcm50 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 5 . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | 0 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As a result, I'm reluctant to play "b" at all if I can avoid it, which in turn makes playing "a" earlier on that little bit larger.

SmartGo returns 124 pro games for this local (left-side) pattern,
so you can draw your own conclusions about 'overplays,' 'jealous moves,' or otherwise 'mistakes' here.

i agree with you completely.
soon as i saw his move i knew that it was not a good move.
it took me few minute to prove my feeling

i guess if you are strong enough..you dont really need reading to know that certain move is wrong.

The real concern I have is Black getting to hane at the head and foot of my two stones, which allowing to happen is normally a sin punishable by death. However, again I'm just going on my reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is at least completely alive, and why I chose it above simply pulling back last move. I'm actually less happy now looking at this position, but alive is good. I also hope to get sente for one of the "a" points, but I need to worry about whether Black can completely seal in with "b". If he can, I probably have to take gote there which makes my decision to play as I have probably poor.

Of course, Black may try to be really ambitious, but this I _do_ have a plan for (albeit one that may not be sound):

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[go]$$Bcm19 :b21: @ :ec:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | 6 C O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now Black starts to have some interesting problems. Either White gets to play at "a" which looks great to me, or Black does, and the following happens:

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[go]$$Bcm29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | O . O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | O . O X 7 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X 4 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

They all look good for White to me. Which means maybe Black has to let me have "a":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this looks dangerous for Black to me too. So, I think Black just has to squish me against the side and be happy as in my first variation. Problem is, I'd be happy with that as Black too I think, so I'm hardly taking an advantage. However, I'm happy to be settled, that's pretty useful at least, and should be sente hopefully.