Life In 19x19

Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://lifein19x19.com/

115 - robinz v. 1986

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3740

Page 2 of 31

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:47 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm thinking about sente ... hmmmn something will come up

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:00 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For my next move, I may actually have to make a decision...

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:13 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 1 . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
alright this sequence is played out its his sente lets see how he uses it

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:54 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As I said a few moves back, the main choice was between this move and Q14. Q14 firmly captures the stone at R14 (I recall Kageyama calling it the "proper move"), but I also know it's not the only joseki move, and right now, it feels more important to me to keep white confined to third-line territory on the top. I don't think he can do much with that stone yet (and I'm sure he won't try to). While I'll probably have to take gote at some point in the future to do something about it, and that will be a bit annoying, it's not clear that it would be any worse than doing so now :)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:52 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
OK,1st & foremost,
i wasn't expecting that move, i thought for sure he was going to approach my lonely stone

2nd i want to consider taking sente away from him but first,, i wanna ask why he played it is there something I'm missing/ can i die

hmmmn, i really don't want to risk giving him sente again by reinforcing the top group I'm OK for now,

so now I'm deciding on where to play to make things good for me,

i see wall beginning to form on the top side and the right side is potentially looking promising for black

I'm not to comfortable with approaching form the r6 direction tight or loose
so that leaves me with o3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 6 X 4 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i got enough territory for now i prefer to have some counter influence to his high position so far
besides the middle of the right side becomes very promising
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a light way to play but it is still not so good maybe later though...

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:25 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
No pincer this time - firstly, he has the lower left, and secondly, I want to build up a moyo on the right, so it's important for me to avoid him double-approaching. Because of this moyo potential, I'm playing this move high rather than low - he can't easily slide in and undercut me (although he may well still successfully invade in the R8 region). I expect him to now make an extension from his just-played approach (possibly after sliding first), when I will probably play on the left (I'm currently trying to choose between a normal approach at C6 or a wedge at C9). Of course, he could invade the lower-right now as he just did the upper-right, but I will still have some nice options, so I won't worry about that now.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:36 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
basic joseki here

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:42 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I briefly considered whether or not I needed to play this, or whether I'd be better of tenukiing to a big point on the left - but then I decided that this is too good for me. I do feel that that last move of his feels like a mistake (even though it's one of the moves I was expecting) - the corner is now mine, and I think I basically only need one more move around Q8 to have fairly secure fourth line territory on a whole side of the board! Further, he still needs an extra move to stabilise his group here.

So I currently feel pretty good about this board, and I'm beginning to feel glad I played an opening I was comfortable with - I just hope I don't screw things up too much in the middlegame/endgame now ;-)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:56 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm keeping it simple here i thought about q9 but i might as well see how he is going to play his next turn then decide on something hmmmn

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:17 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I can't see anything urgent on the board right now, so I should play the biggest move - and I think this is it. I'd still like to play at Q14, or in the Q8/9 region, but I think this side must be biggest. While my right is still invadable (I think so, anyway), the same applies to many points in white's position. And, whichever way he forces me to extend with this stone, it should put some pressure on white. Especially if I get to extend to C6, so I'm expecting white to play that.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:54 am
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
the bottom left side wants to extend more than the top left since its the 4th line and not the 3rd;

the top left is small right now because of that stone sitting low, extending form the top is ok but i much rather extend from the bottom corner, either way is playable but the bottom feels bigger and more comfortable for me

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:05 am
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Well, that's quite up close and personal :D My group is now going to come under more pressure than it would have done had he played C6, but on the plus side, his corner formation is weaker. Looks like things may soon explode into some kind of fight, which should at least be fun and educational, if nothing else ;-)

PS: I'd appreciate some comments from stronger players on what they think of the way I've played the opening - even if it's in hide tags for me to not read until after the game. In particular, I'm not so sure about C9 all of a sudden - but it felt right at the time. (I note that EdLee made a couple of comments a few moves ago - thanks, and I hope I find them useful when I eventually get to read them :))

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:34 am
by mw42
robinz wrote:
Well, that's quite up close and personal :D My group is now going to come under more pressure than it would have done had he played C6, but on the plus side, his corner formation is weaker. Looks like things may soon explode into some kind of fight, which should at least be fun and educational, if nothing else ;-)

PS: I'd appreciate some comments from stronger players on what they think of the way I've played the opening - even if it's in hide tags for me to not read until after the game. In particular, I'm not so sure about C9 all of a sudden - but it felt right at the time. (I note that EdLee made a couple of comments a few moves ago - thanks, and I hope I find them useful when I eventually get to read them :))
@robinz
Well, just a couple quick comments: the direction that you blocked in the upper-right was wrong. If you blocked in the other direction (top) all your stones would have been working together nicely. As is, though, they are oddly placed (although you may have a chance to turn it to your benefit, but I can say no more!). You mentioned that Kageyama said capturing the stone was the "honest" move in the san-san joseki. I believe the context is different from when Kageyama made that statement. It is usually considered too slow to play in the way you described as "honest." I wouldn't play that move early unless my opponent had a strong surrounding position. Also, your idea to split the left was wrong, I think, since white already had a position on that side. The result makes it obvious that your choice was wrong. White will now very comfortably take the whole upper-left corner further hurting your top group while all you have is a very cramped two-space extension that is open to attack. Just approaching the bottom-left corner would have been a better strategy. Sorry if I sound overly critical. :D

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:53 am
by robinz
@mw42:
I have no problem with your criticism - it's all constructive, and I can hardly improve any other way :D

I suspect you're right that my play on the left was wrong - but we'll at least see how that goes now I've done it. I'm slightly surprised by your criticism of the way I blocked in the upper right though - I didn't even consider doing it the other way, and while I can now see that that would have been fine too, I don't really see what's wrong with the way I did it. The traditional proverb here is after all to "block on the wider side", and my right was (and still is) wider than my top. It seems to me to come down to which side I'd rather emphasise - and I chose the right. I also don't see how my stones are "oddly placed" (perhaps I'm a little overconcentrated, but if so that's probably due to my pincer stone being too close) - but I guess I could do later ;-)

I'm not saying that you're wrong, at all - you're definitely a lot stronger than me, as is Ed Lee, who commented on my block and I guess must have said the same as you now are saying. I'm just saying that, even in hindsight (not that the game has progressed that much further yet) I can't see why my choice was wrong. Maybe the game will show me, and even if not I can read Ed's comments afterwards. Thanks again :)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:08 am
by mw42
@robinz
Block on the wider side is what I might use to justify blocking at the top. Consider these two diagrams:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Dia. 1 - Block on the right
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Dia. 2 - Block on the top
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . Y . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . Y . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Note in Dia. 1 I played your hane to clean up the aji of :wt: and so both joseki end in gote for the sake of discussion. Both diagrams result in a wall and an extension at :bt: . Which extension is "wider"? The one resulting from blocking on the top! It is in the perfect position and (a) is a nice move to enlarge your moyo.

If the position in the upper-left was like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Dia. 1 - Block on the right
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Then I think the choice is more ambiguous and perhaps this is better.
EDIT:
I also don't see how my stones are "oddly placed" (perhaps I'm a little overconcentrated, but if so that's probably due to my pincer stone being too close) - but I guess I could do later ;-)
The stones that I consider oddly placed are your stones on the top. Consider the following diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Dia. 3 - W(a), B(b), W(c), Next move for black?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . 0 . . d . . . . 9 . 3 1 7 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . e . . . . 4 X 2 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If the san-san joseki is played first before you kakari the upper-left corner (assuming you chose to do it on the top which wouldn't be correct to begin with) would you want to play at (d) to settle your group or (e) to build a framework?
All times are UTC-07:00
Page 2 of 31

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited