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Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:47 pm
by gowan
CXUD wrote:I'm glad to get any help I can get.
I realize this sounds strange but I can't buy paper books, I've adopted an ahimsa policy, which is nearly impossible to follow, but I add each thing piece by piece and books have been added (along with meat and root vegetables ect.) if there's an online version I'll try to buy it that way though.
It's admirable to try not to do harm. Does your policy allow you to use library books? If so you might be able to get some go books on interlibrary loan.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:57 pm
by shapenaji
Punishing joseki mistakes is one of those things that I WOULDN'T get a book for.
The problem is, if you're categorizing your joseki and then memorizing responses, you'll get none of the excellent educational value from trying out your responses.
Many joseki "refutations" simply show one side to lose a ko threat, or have a slightly disadvantageous position, there are remarkably few joseki that you would see at the SDK level that will confer a major advantage/disadvantage.
It's better to think of a joseki as a framework, where they attack/defend in the joseki shows where the strengths and weaknesses are. Once you know this, if they deviate, you should ask yourself the question "What did the joseki move accomplish? What did this move neglect?"
Now, that doesn't mean "He neglected to protect his group so now I can kill"
It probably means "He neglected to protect his group, so now I have a target for attack"
Learning how to respond to both his deviation and address the weakness is a skill, you just need to practice it.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:59 pm
by jts
In the future if you lose a game where your opponent deviated from joseki, you can post it here in the forums for a review. Probably one of the things your reviewers will mention is whether you can take advantage of the deviation.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:40 pm
by Xyiana
There is "Tricks in joseki" pocket size book with 80 joseki problems. i think they are good examples and at your level you can get something for thinking about.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:33 pm
by Bantari
CXUD wrote:I'm glad to get any help I can get.
I realize this sounds strange but I can't buy paper books, I've adopted an ahimsa policy, which is nearly impossible to follow, but I add each thing piece by piece and books have been added (along with meat and root vegetables ect.) if there's an online version I'll try to buy it that way though.
I find that very interesting, on a philosophical level.
Always wondered what does more harm: cutting trees to produce books or all the industry necessary to give us the same books in electronic format together with the wonderful devices on which we view them. And how can a choice one way or another be argued?
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:02 pm
by CXUD
Oh it really is nearly impossible to follow. Anything produces harm, even windmill generated power kills birds. I just handle it through step by step measures. Industry such as plastics metals and power generation is brutal on all kinds of eco systems
gowan wrote:CXUD wrote:I'm glad to get any help I can get.
I realize this sounds strange but I can't buy paper books, I've adopted an ahimsa policy, which is nearly impossible to follow, but I add each thing piece by piece and books have been added (along with meat and root vegetables ect.) if there's an online version I'll try to buy it that way though.
It's admirable to try not to do harm. Does your policy allow you to use library books? If so you might be able to get some go books on interlibrary loan.
Yes it does, I had forgotten about that entirely. Chew mentioned I could get books shipped in from other libraries, hadn't even occurred to me.
shapenaji wrote:Punishing joseki mistakes is one of those things that I WOULDN'T get a book for.
The problem is, if you're categorizing your joseki and then memorizing responses, you'll get none of the excellent educational value from trying out your responses.
Many joseki "refutations" simply show one side to lose a ko threat, or have a slightly disadvantageous position, there are remarkably few joseki that you would see at the SDK level that will confer a major advantage/disadvantage.
It's better to think of a joseki as a framework, where they attack/defend in the joseki shows where the strengths and weaknesses are. Once you know this, if they deviate, you should ask yourself the question "What did the joseki move accomplish? What did this move neglect?"
Now, that doesn't mean "He neglected to protect his group so now I can kill"
It probably means "He neglected to protect his group, so now I have a target for attack"
Learning how to respond to both his deviation and address the weakness is a learned skill, you just need to practice it.
I think my view of it is less subtle because I get invaded so badly and it looks like total destruction.
jts wrote:In the future if you lose a game where your opponent deviated from joseki, you can post it here in the forums for a review. Probably one of the things your reviewers will mention is whether you can take advantage of the deviation.
Yeah I'll probably do that, I just like the idea of having all the forms and concepts in my head (in other words I don't like to get beaten badly
).
Xyiana wrote:There is "Tricks in joseki" pocket size book with 80 joseki problems. i think they are good examples and at your level you can get something for thinking about.
Cool, I'll add that to the library list.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:10 pm
by xed_over
Xyiana wrote:There is "Tricks in joseki" pocket size book with 80 joseki problems. i think they are good examples and at your level you can get something for thinking about.
personally, I didn't find either of these two books very useful. they may be better aimed at dan level players
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:38 am
by malweth
xed_over wrote:
personally, I didn't find either of these two books very useful. they may be better aimed at dan level players
I think that's the problem with all of this advice.
CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
For a 20k there are much better ways of study. Play a lot. Play through a lot of pro games (which will get you used to game flow, fuseki, and joseki). Practice very basic tsumego (1 move answers). Read basic books (I'm not sure what's available for beginner ebooks - if available the Elementary Go Series is good, Otake's book on fuseki is good too).
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:00 am
by snorri
Yes, a lot of Mingjiu's teaching focuses on this area, including his lectures. As of today, he has 13 audio lectures on internetgoschool.com under the category "the correct way of using basic josekis." See
http://internetgoschool.com/lectures.vhtml?tab=5#16.
He takes lots of examples from amateur games, usually low to mid dans because they have mistakes but not everything is a mistake so there some sensible context.
I think this is better than a joseki book for learning practical punishments for joseki mistakes, because the "bad lines" in joseki books often aren't the same mistakes that modern amateurs on, say, KGS make. But Mingjiu sees a lot of the latter from his students.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:54 am
by CXUD
malweth wrote:xed_over wrote:
personally, I didn't find either of these two books very useful. they may be better aimed at dan level players
I think that's the problem with all of this advice.
CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
For a 20k there are much better ways of study. Play a lot. Play through a lot of pro games (which will get you used to game flow, fuseki, and joseki). Practice very basic tsumego (1 move answers). Read basic books (I'm not sure what's available for beginner ebooks - if available the Elementary Go Series is good, Otake's book on fuseki is good too).
Sorry, I just updated my kgs ranking. I'm not convinced thats my actual level though, I think it's a little weaker than that.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:33 am
by HermanHiddema
A few points:
- Just because you have never seen a certain move before does not mean it is not joseki
- Sometimes, a move that is not normally considered joseki is playable due to unusual circumstances.
- For some joseki deviations, the "punishment" is a one or two point gain in the endgame.
- Other deviations are inferior only because they leave more aji. Trying to punish them immediately is probably aji-keshi.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:12 am
by hyperpape
malweth wrote:CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
I don't get these kinds of comments. Easy example: 5 kyus should know the following
is bad and the punishment.
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:50 am
by p2501
hyperpape wrote:malweth wrote:CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
I don't get these kinds of comments. Easy example: 5 kyus should know the following
is bad and the punishment.
$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Sorry for being off topic, but is this correct? :
$$B
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$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 6 . |
$$ , . . . . 8 X 3 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 6 . |
$$ , . . . . 8 X 3 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
After white 8 black has failed confining white into the corner and will lose either 5 or 3+7.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:58 am
by hyperpape
It's just now occurring to me that there was an in depth discussion of this move here on L19, and that it's actually quite complicated. But that's one punishment.
Maybe a bad example.
Re: punishing joseki
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:21 am
by gowan
p2501 wrote:hyperpape wrote:malweth wrote:CXUD - at 20k, if you know 10 basic joseki you're ahead of the game. Don't worry about joseki until you're at least SDK. Punishing joseki is easily a dan level topic.
I don't get these kinds of comments. Easy example: 5 kyus should know the following
is bad and the punishment.
$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Sorry for being off topic, but is this correct? :
$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 6 . |
$$ , . . . . 8 X 3 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 2 6 . |
$$ , . . . . 8 X 3 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
After white 8 black has failed confining white into the corner and will lose either 5 or 3+7.
There is a lot of material on this on Sensei's Library:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointOneSpace ... terception See the section on "Mistakes" towards the bottom of the page. Part of the problem is that the hane at b5 is the "mistake" but it has been played in pro games (see remark at the top of the SL page). The moral of this story is that mistakes might not be mistakes, and punishment of even fairly simple mistakes can be very complicated.