Life In 19x19

Magicwand wrote:

jts wrote: But is it actually "falling apart"? In terms of producing highly skilled players and fascinating matches, the pro systems are do as well as, if not better than, ever. (Right?) And even when the finances sour the basic financial stability of the systems is strong enough that small reorganizations gain lots of breathing space.

in my opinion, it is falling apart just like social security tax i will never see.
if sponsors can not pay professionals then what other options do they have?
are they any different than amature players? answer is no!
for old timers who can not win any match still get payed till they die.
that alone need to be reformed in order for pro system to survive.
but people who make those decisions are old timers who doesnt want to give up their money.
therefore i see no other way but fall apart.

You want your social security but you don't think professional go players should have it?

Magicwand wrote:

jts wrote: But is it actually "falling apart"? In terms of producing highly skilled players and fascinating matches, the pro systems are do as well as, if not better than, ever. (Right?) And even when the finances sour the basic financial stability of the systems is strong enough that small reorganizations gain lots of breathing space.

in my opinion, it is falling apart just like social security tax i will never see.
if sponsors can not pay professionals then what other options do they have?
are they any different than amature players? answer is no!
for old timers who can not win any match still get payed till they die.
that alone need to be reformed in order for pro system to survive.
but people who make those decisions are old timers who doesnt want to give up their money.
therefore i see no other way but fall apart.

It's really not that different from social security, is it? There's some extra pain to be spread around, and factions which are trying to force the least popular solutions on everyone else may try to paralyze the decision-making process, but at the end of the day the reformed system will look barely different from the current system.

Ending the Oteai was, at the time, considered a shocking step, wasn't it? But I don't get the sense that Japanese Go has disintegrated.

daal wrote: You want your social security but you don't think professional go players should have it?

i do pay my tax but i dont think we will have any money left when i become 65 (or whatever age at that time).
same with professionals they wont have any money to pay them when they become old timers.
system looks good in the beginning but will fall apart like pyrmid. that is what i predict.

Actually, even pros in other countries need to supplement their income by teaching. If there is a large enough pool of people wanting to learn, then that is quite feasible here as well. When the KBA began licensing pros, it was little more than a piece of paper, and there was no way to make a living from it. Look at them now though, it is a huge industry, like a regular sport almost. The other sense that one can be a "professional" is in terms of licensing. Think of lawyers who are licensed to practice. Many people pass the bar, or get an M.D., and then end up not being lawyers or doctors, they teach, or do research, or whatever. In any case they are acknowledged as having achieved a certain level. It would be the same with pros here, and they would be able to charge more for lessons by being certified.

The notion that the professional system will fail because they can't figure out how to deal with social security benefits seems far-fetched. The professionals may indeed get less money at some point, but that certainly doesn't spell the demise of the system.

gowan wrote:For a long time the strongest amateur players in the USA were Korean ex-yeongusaeng who failed to qualify as pros. I hope this system will be more than just a second chance for those unsuccessful pro students.

May I ask when this was the case? I know you probably remember that period, but it does seem to have changed. There are very good ex-yeongusaeng who have played in the US or continue to play, but the best amateur players active these days don't seem to fit the mold.

hyperpape wrote:

gowan wrote:For a long time the strongest amateur players in the USA were Korean ex-yeongusaeng who failed to qualify as pros. I hope this system will be more than just a second chance for those unsuccessful pro students.

May I ask when this was the case? I know you probably remember that period, but it does seem to have changed. There are very good ex-yeongusaeng who have played in the US or continue to play, but the best amateur players active these days don't seem to fit the mold.

I don't know how long this lasted but it was certainly true in the late 1970's, early '80s. More recently there was a young ex-yeongusaeng Korean player who, while not exactly dominating the US tournament scene did win the Cotsen tournament and some other big ones. I suppose this new system will have some sort of citizenship/permanent resident requirement. And what about the Korean amateur players who tend to win the European Open, prompting some moves to "keep our prize money for the Europeans"?

New thread time maybe? I would suggest calling it "Professional systems falling apart?".

Phelan wrote:New thread time maybe? I would suggest calling it "Professional systems falling apart?".

Life and death, fire and ice, 陰 and 陽, coming together and falling apart - being and non-being support each other! Watch the turmoil of beings and contemplate their return.

The money from Tygem is specifically for a certification tournament. KBA's financial support is, at the moment, limited to hosting students. Final details of course are not set in stone yet. Just thought I should say that... The intention is to find more sponsors for additional tournaments.

daniel_the_smith wrote:The money from Tygem is specifically for a certification tournament.

How does that work? Pay per game played online and use the full purse up? If so, that's a pretty big purse for the certification games.

oren wrote:

daniel_the_smith wrote:The money from Tygem is specifically for a certification tournament.

How does that work? Pay per game played online and use the full purse up? If so, that's a pretty big purse for the certification games.

I don't think the details have been worked out. AFAIK, prize allocations will be up to the organizers of the tournament.

One thing I am still curious about is the tax implications of being a professional player for the US.

The AGA made mention of potentially tapping US players winnings. If this is the case, does this mean that after having their earnings "taxed" by the AGA, they must also pay federal taxes as well? As far I know it doesn't matter where you make the money, as long as you are a US citizen, you owe Uncle Sam and the IRS taxes on all money earned.

As far as the falling apart of the Asian Go scene, seems like at the very least Japan has been through it before. Please correct me if I am wrong but Go was well funded during the Tokugawa era, then came the Meiji era and Go declined. Another decline during WWII. The advantage most Asian countries have is that Go is very much a part of their history and culture. People will play Go regardless if there is financial reward to do so or not. While I fully support and applaud the idea of having a US Pro Organization, this does seem like an era of decline. Are they planning on riding the wave up when it picks up again? Also I think even with a professional organization, the talent pool is rather small here in the US. Most of the time you need a catalyzing figure to energize interest in a subject. Can we honestly expect a winner in any major tournament in the near future? I'm doubtful.