Life In 19x19

shapenaji wrote:

$$W fake joseki follow-up
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X 2 . .
$$ | . . X , 1 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W fake joseki follow-up
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X 2 . .
$$ | . . X , 1 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
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Same for the question why White is better.

leaves aji on the right because of the push and cut, this might be playable though if the right side is more solid

Actually there is more to it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W follow-up
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 . X . X X . .
$$ | . . X , O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . O O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .[/go]

Due to the aji, White's left side extension is bigger than usual because White 1 becomes possible. Black started making 2 points more but the effect can be that he loses more points in the corner. So to justify your "is playable", one must consider also this variation. It is not the kind of thing learned easily from opponents but is found in reasonable dictionaries.

Don't just say "this is wrong", which is my impression of a lot of Joseki books.

There I agree and so my next book will have comments of the kind "locally inferior but can be played if...".

the important part is to recognize that you got a bad result

For that very reason, my joseki dictionary will evaluate every joseki and failure variation. This is something I have missed in all other joseki dictionaries I have seen so far.

The reading, tesuji, and whole-board-judgement practice is far more valuable, in my opinion.

Without reading, nothing works:)

Tesuji: Some tesuji are so unexpected that one cannot rediscover them all. It is possible, of course, to study them by reading tesuji books instead of joseki dictionaries.

Whole board judgement: Necessary but it is often an overkill for comparing different local variations. There local positional judgement (for corner sequences) becomes useful.

I don't believe SDK's need dictionaries.

Most of the low dans having told me not to have read a joseki dictionary have shown a poor variety of corner sequences in their games up to always playing 4-4 to avoid entering unknown waters. Your development is an exception.

I think that at their level, tesuji, shape and reading are much more valuable.

(I am not convinced about shape.)

Tesuji and reading are necessary but "much more valuable"? Joseki study can make an SDK at least as much stronger as tesuji and reading. So I think "about equally valuable" is a better guess.

The corner patterns have the highest density of these kind of problems during the game. It is a waste to then rely on an opening book

No. First joseki study made me 2+ ranks stronger, afterwards opening study made me 1.5+ ranks stronger. Presumably it can also work in reversed order or if both joseki and openings are studied simultaneously.

They should be constantly trying to invent.

Could you do that as a kyu player? I started doing it at about 2 dan.

I would welcome you to use any joseki dictionary in a 10 minutes absolute game on KGS.

RobertJasiek wrote: Actually there is more to it:

$$W follow-up
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 . X . X X . .
$$ | . . X , O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . O O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W follow-up
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 . X . X X . .
$$ | . . X , O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . O O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .[/go]

Due to the aji, White's left side extension is bigger than usual because White 1 becomes possible. Black started making 2 points more but the effect can be that he loses more points in the corner. So to justify your "is playable", one must consider also this variation. It is not the kind of thing learned easily from opponents but is found in reasonable dictionaries.

Consider that black has been given a tenuki on both sides, and consider the difference between black follow-ups at A and B at the end of the following SGF. It's a 2 point difference, maybe even a 1 point...

There I agree and so my next book will have comments of the kind "locally inferior but can be played if...".

For that very reason, my joseki dictionary will evaluate every joseki and failure variation. This is something I have missed in all other joseki dictionaries I have seen so far.

I feel this is certainly an improvement, and I'm glad to hear that this book will be different.

Without reading, nothing works:)

Tesuji: Some tesuji are so unexpected that one cannot rediscover them all. It is possible, of course, to study them by reading tesuji books instead of joseki dictionaries.

I would say there is a difference here, Tesuji books involve the illustration of a concept over the course of many problems. They show us what is shared.

Joseki dictionaries (Generally speaking, yours sounds different), involve preparing a very specific position, where there is no guarantee that the concepts WILL carry over. (Unless it is also a tesuji theory book)

Most of the low dans having told me not to have read a joseki dictionary have shown a poor variety of corner sequences in their games up to always playing 4-4 to avoid entering unknown waters. Your development is an exception.

I found star point joseki boring initially, it's not as though I wanted to avoid joseki, I actually loved them. Corners have some of the most interesting tesuji, I waded into the avalanche variations for a while, because I found the basic variation (out of our earlier fake joseki example), to just rush into the middlegame.

I actually tried to pick up a book for the avalanche variations, it was the one time I did. The problem was, I just didn't see how the joseki book was teaching me to choose a direction. I figured if I learned direction and tesuji, then the joseki would just make sense. And by the time I learned Direction and tesuji, I was pretty confident that I didn't need the joseki book.

Tesuji and reading are necessary but "much more valuable"? Joseki study can make an SDK at least as much stronger as tesuji and reading. So I think "about equally valuable" is a better guess.

Hmm, I don't know, I feel as though it may make them stronger in the short term, but leave holes in their understanding. They won't have had the practice developing their joseki, so they won't feel as comfortable in unusual waters.

No. First joseki study made me 2+ ranks stronger, afterwards opening study made me 1.5+ ranks stronger. Presumably it can also work in reversed order or if both joseki and openings are studied simultaneously.

I certainly think joseki study can improve a player. But my contention is that if they are not extremely careful, it can become a crutch.

Those players who study it and succeed must pay very very close attention to the writing of the book. As long as it is possible for a player to memorize variations without understanding them, they may not spend the due diligence that is required of various joseki.

They should be constantly trying to invent.

Could you do that as a kyu player? I started doing it at about 2 dan.

Definitely started doing it as a Kyu player, I was always trying to play on the very edge of efficiency, which led to me getting too thin, which made my tesuji develop so that I'd stop getting cut apart.

I've been planning a "Sai Skype Service" for games. You can consult with a sstronger player during the game everytime you are about to move. That way you don't have to memorize life and death, joseki, shape, fighting principles, reduction, counting or in fact anything at all.

Javaness2 wrote:I've been planning a "Sai Skype Service" for games. You can consult with a sstronger player during the game everytime you are about to move. That way you don't have to memorize life and death, joseki, shape, fighting principles, reduction, counting or in fact anything at all.

But then you don't play.

shapenaji wrote: Consider that black has been given a tenuki on both sides, and consider the difference between black follow-ups at A and B at the end of the following SGF. It's a 2 point difference, maybe even a 1 point...

Maybe it is an exercise for somebody to provide an accurate endgame assessment?:)

just didn't see how the joseki book was teaching me to choose a direction.

It is a major mistake of all previous joseki dictionaries indeed.

by the time I learned Direction and tesuji, I was pretty confident that I didn't need the joseki book.

There are also lots of other kinds of strategic choices than those related to direction or tesuji:)

Those players who study it and succeed must pay very very close attention to the writing of the book.

If it is one in a style similar to the Ishida.

As long as it is possible for a player to memorize variations without understanding them,

It does not work. Maybe one remembers such variations for three months, but then one has to start all over again. Understanding is the key to memorising well. Same for pro games.

Definitely started doing it as a Kyu player

Wow!

This talk about joseki, direction of play, and the value of joseki dictionaries prompted me to take a look at an ancient joseki/fuseki dictionary. I thought this was interesting:

13 and 27 look particularly, eh, ancient:)

Bill Spight wrote:This talk about joseki, direction of play, and the value of joseki dictionaries prompted me to take a look at an ancient joseki/fuseki dictionary.

What is the name of this ancient dictionary?

tchan001 wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:This talk about joseki, direction of play, and the value of joseki dictionaries prompted me to take a look at an ancient joseki/fuseki dictionary.

What is the name of this ancient dictionary?

囲碁定石集
四十番碁立

Except that the 囲 is old style.

Igo Joseki Collection, Forty Go Openings

RobertJasiek wrote: For that very reason, my joseki dictionary will evaluate every joseki and failure variation. This is something I have missed in all other joseki dictionaries I have seen so far.

Mmmh, i will not be surprised if volume three will have some more pages than the two other volumes. Do you already have made a selection of the josekis which will be discussed in volume three?

Nagilum wrote:i will not be surprised if volume three will have some more pages than the two other volumes.

I still have good hope that the page number will be about the same despite...

Do you already have made a selection of the josekis which will be discussed in volume three?

...400+ josekis, 100+ pro game examples and all the new extras. It has been hard work to keep the page number within reasonable bounds:) The selection of josekis has the aims "every joseki a player needs", "including modern josekis", "without most rare, complicated josekis no one can remember anyway", "without most old-fashioned josekis, which professionals scarcely play today".

There are reasons why I could well restrict the page number:
- Especially Volume 1 but also Volume 2 provide many explanations for basic moves, strategic lines, group meanings etc., which I do not need to repeat for every basic move in every joseki.
- The low percentage of complicated josekis avoids many additional variations for their study.
- There is another very important reason I do not reveal yet, but you will see...:)