Life In 19x19

Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://lifein19x19.com/

#163 Boidhre vs Drewch

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=5933

Page 2 of 9

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:20 am
by EdLee
Drewch,
(1) In general (say, on an empty board) how would you rank these (from biggest to smallest) -- (a) sides; (b) center; (c) corners ?

(2) Follow-up question:
Drewch wrote:gain large territory in the bottom middle.
How does your "bottom middle" idea fit in your answer to (1) ?

Re:

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:23 am
by Drewch
EdLee wrote:Drewch,
(1) In general (say, on an empty board) how would you rank these (from biggest to smallest) -- (a) sides; (b) center; (c) corners ?

(2) Follow-up question:
Drewch wrote:gain large territory in the bottom middle.
How does your "bottom middle" idea fit in your answer to (1) ?
@EdLee
I know that the order that you should get them in are: Corner, side, middle (I know this doesn't answer your question).
But I think in order of bigness, I would say middle is biggest, then sides, then corners.

So I was thinking that the bottom middle is bigger than the corners.

However, even typing this out is making me feel a bit silly and that I am probably completely wrong.

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:42 am
by EdLee
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . X . x . 1 . x . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . x . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
W does not have to reply to :b7:. Instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
B missed a big chance with :b7:; instead, :b1: starts an attack on the :wc: group while expanding the lower right moyo --
W would be too busy to worry about (a) or (b):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a . X . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . W W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:48 am
by EdLee
Drewch,
No problem. :)
Drewch wrote:I know that the order that you should get them in are: Corner, side, middle
But I think in order of bigness, I would say middle is biggest, then sides, then corners.
Could you explain this discrepancy? Why would "the order you should get them" be the exact opposite of the bigness ordering?
In other words, if the corners are the smallest (as you say), then why should you take the corners first?
Similarly, if the center is the biggest (as you say), then why should you take it last?

Re:

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:00 pm
by Drewch
EdLee wrote:Drewch,
No problem. :)
Drewch wrote:I know that the order that you should get them in are: Corner, side, middle
But I think in order of bigness, I would say middle is biggest, then sides, then corners.
Could you explain this discrepancy? Why would "the order you should get them" be the exact opposite of the bigness ordering?
In other words, if the corners are the smallest (as you say), then why should you take the corners first?
Similarly, if the center is the biggest (as you say), then why should you take it last?
@EdLee
The reason for taking them first is because corners are much easier to get then middle, and sides are next easiest, and the middle is the hardest to get.
So the corners are definitely the most bang for your buck, essentially making it the "Biggest" play.

In terms of territory though, I know that the third line's being white all around the board, and the black taking 4th line all around the board. Gives the closest ratio to 1 (black owns all center territory, and white owns all side+corners).

So in this sense, the territory amount possible is Center>Sides>Corner

But in terms of the Biggest move, I definitely agree that corner's are the biggest move, and then the sides, and then the center of the board.

In the case of the current game, I think I was able to make moves seeming like I am going for the corner, but really trying to secure an entire side, and in terms of the bottom of the board, I believe I can own the middle, and 0.5 of a corner. leaving him with 1.5 corners.

I think this would put me ahead in the early game in terms of territory.

I am hoping that this is what happens. I am curious to see if my thinking is completely flawed.

In normal games I would always defend the corners first. This game is definitely out of my normal style. But I am glad this is coming up. Thanks Ed.

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:14 pm
by Drewch
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . B W . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think I am not typing out my plan properly, so I'm going to make a diagram for how I think it is going to go:
On the left side it is the attach and extend joseski:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Sorry, I couldn't have the numbers on there properly. But after the left, I will play M4, and he will likely play Q5 starting the joeseki

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:22 pm
by Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X W . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Joseki.

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:24 pm
by Drewch
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Finishing attach and extend joseki

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:28 pm
by Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . B W O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It'll be interesting to see what he does next and whether I can tenuki before he does.

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:30 pm
by Drewch
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . B O O . . . . W . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Attach and Extend Joeseki is complete. Now carry out to the rest.

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:48 pm
by Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . W . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Options are:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . X . . . . . . . . b O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . W . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a versus b

I'm going with b as I already reasoned that it leaves me to tenuki first and thus play a. His last stone will nullify the effect of my wall though. The other option of taking the side and corner though and giving him the outside is too generous though I think. Though definitely this is sub optimal with his last move.

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:50 pm
by Drewch
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This was his expected response. Let's see if he differs at all

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:57 pm
by EdLee
Drewch,
Drewch wrote:(1) So the corners are definitely the most bang for your buck, essentially making it the "Biggest" play.
But in terms of the Biggest move, I definitely agree that corner's are the biggest move, and then the sides, and then the center of the board.

(2) In terms of territory though, I know that the third line's being white all around the board, and the black taking 4th line all around the board.
Gives the closest ratio to 1 (black owns all center territory, and white owns all side+corners).
So in this sense, the territory amount possible is Center>Sides>Corner
(1) and (2) still contradict each other, so you're still saying two opposite things and trying to get away with it.
Let's see a diagram with an exact count for (2). Let's see what you mean by (2). :)

Re: #163 Boidhre vs Drewch

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:59 pm
by Boidhre
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . B W . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Joseki. Like I said though, sub-optimal.


This beckons though:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . a . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:00 pm
by EdLee
:evil:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . Q , # . X O . ,
$$ | . . . . # Q O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
All times are UTC-07:00
Page 2 of 9

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited