Life In 19x19

Duckweed, my post was probably too ambiguous for its own good. I don't think you wrote anything unreasonable, but my perception is that KGS admins are not likely to work with you, so much as tell you that there is no lag, or rather that whatever lag you experience is probably on your end. My comment was intended to say that you had a charming faith in the system.

I guess they're probably right about the lag, btw, I just don't know how we'd really know that At least with the earlier suggestion, that the client itself is laggy, someone can monitor their own machine to see when packets are being sent, and if there were some client side-lag, I'm confident that it would have been seen by now. So my uninformed assumption is that the client is not producing any slowness. But as far as any slowness on the server-side, it's just "trust us!", things are ok.

hyperpape wrote:Duckweed, my post was probably too ambiguous for its own good. I don't think you wrote anything unreasonable, but my perception is that KGS admins are not likely to work with you, so much as tell you that there is no lag, or rather that whatever lag you experience is probably on your end. My comment was intended to say that you had a charming faith in the system.

I guess they're probably right about the lag, btw, I just don't know how we'd really know that At least with the earlier suggestion, that the client itself is laggy, someone can monitor their own machine to see when packets are being sent, and if there were some client side-lag, I'm confident that it would have been seen by now. So my uninformed assumption is that the client is not producing any slowness. But as far as any slowness on the server-side, it's just "trust us!", things are ok.

One other thing to consider is that java itself can be fairly slow if there's a lot of other stuff running on the computer and/or it's an older machine.

The most important part of filing a bug report is that you give the set of conditions that reproduces the bug.

If your bug is not reproducible by the developer it will probably never get fixed.

If your bug report just consist of "It lags", I really can't blame the admins for being unable to assist you. Its just not good enough.

There are many sites that describes how to file a good bug report.

If a server has intermittently slow response times, you can't file a bug report against that. We're dealing with that problem here on L19--no one can write a real reproducible bug report because there's not much of a pattern--certainly no pattern a user can trigger. The only response is to carefully measure the server's performance and response time, and crunch the stats. That can be easy or hard, depending on your setup (heroku's queueing problem).

duckweed wrote:give the set of conditions that reproduces the bug.

This only works if the bug is triggered by a set of conditions that I have any control over. If, from my perspective, it changes like the wind, that's all I can report. (I confess I'm rather doubtful that my report will ever make it to the developer anyway, and I know he's received similar reports in the past. And if the new HTML client appears and runs smoothly, it might never matter anyway.)

hyperpape wrote:If a server has intermittently slow response times, you can't file a bug report against that. We're dealing with that problem here on L19--no one can write a real reproducible bug report because there's not much of a pattern--certainly no pattern a user can trigger. The only response is to carefully measure the server's performance and response time, and crunch the stats. That can be easy or hard, depending on your setup (heroku's queueing problem).

If the problem is caused by a buggy code segment, there will always be a pattern.

As not everybody connected to the server is encountering the lag, it is connection specific.

What you are doing at that time with the client would be would be what triggers the buggy code segment.

Hello,

A couple of weeks ago, we had a problem raised with connectivity issues via the admin mailbox. After some exchanges of e-mails, the player realised that he'd upgraded Kapersky (sp?) anti-virus. When he removed the anti-virus program, the connectivity issues ceased. I don't understand precisely why the anti-virus repeatedly interrupted the connection, but it caused the problem in this instance.

Given the complexity associated with real-tim connectivity over the internet, sometimes it's more surprising that everything works.

Regards,
Doug

Wow, I've only read the last couple of pages of this thread, so forgive me if I missed something pertinent, but this is a free server that everyone is complaining about. I could understand the incessant moaning if people were paying top dollar to be there, but they aren't. They are paying absolutely nothing in most cases, and a paltry fee in some other cases. I've been a paid up member, but didn't derive enough value, in that I was never around when the lectures were on, and watching replays that I couldn't participate in didn't do it for me. My fault, not KGS's.

As it stands, KGS is a wonderful place, I can't quite believe it's free. I play on IGS and Tygem, and KGS does seem to have a small lag, but nothing I would complain about. I think people need to take a step back and see what they are getting, not what they are not getting.

bleep wrote:Wow, I've only read the last couple of pages of this thread, so forgive me if I missed something pertinent, but this is a free server that everyone is complaining about. I could understand the incessant moaning if people were paying top dollar to be there, but they aren't. They are paying absolutely nothing in most cases, and a paltry fee in some other cases. I've been a paid up member, but didn't derive enough value, in that I was never around when the lectures were on, and watching replays that I couldn't participate in didn't do it for me. My fault, not KGS's.

As it stands, KGS is a wonderful place, I can't quite believe it's free. I play on IGS and Tygem, and KGS does seem to have a small lag, but nothing I would complain about. I think people need to take a step back and see what they are getting, not what they are not getting.

I think if WMS shares your view, he would still be playing on IGS and there would be no KGS.

duckweed wrote:

bleep wrote:Wow, I've only read the last couple of pages of this thread, so forgive me if I missed something pertinent, but this is a free server that everyone is complaining about. I could understand the incessant moaning if people were paying top dollar to be there, but they aren't. They are paying absolutely nothing in most cases, and a paltry fee in some other cases. I've been a paid up member, but didn't derive enough value, in that I was never around when the lectures were on, and watching replays that I couldn't participate in didn't do it for me. My fault, not KGS's.

As it stands, KGS is a wonderful place, I can't quite believe it's free. I play on IGS and Tygem, and KGS does seem to have a small lag, but nothing I would complain about. I think people need to take a step back and see what they are getting, not what they are not getting.

I think if WMS shares your attitude, he would still be playing on IGS and he would not have worked on NNGS and there would be no KGS.

Not necessarily.
There is a difference between wanting to create something good, or something even better (like KGS, Kaya, etc) and incessant whining. Things like holding a grudge for 10 years because of some email, or bashing a server because of a little lag which might not even be the clients issue, or the other stuff which is going on here.

I think what bleep is seeing is that there is a lot of simply bad attitude and malice towards KGS from the direction of a few individuals. They think they have all the good reasons for the way they feel, and maybe they do, but these reasons as given on this forum do not sound very convincing to some. Thus we have a discussion which has run its course long time ago and should have been dropped.

And now I am adding to it even more.
Oh boy...

bleep wrote:KGS does seem to have a small lag, but nothing I would complain about. I think people need to take a step back and see what they are getting

bleep wrote:forgive me if I missed something pertinent

Did you miss the part where I said (several times) that the lag I was experiencing recently was prohibitively long (>10 seconds per move on average) and led to me losing games on time? Or where I said it would often take so long to change from one room tab to another that I wouldn't even bother to start a game? (With respect, if I think I have missed something pertinent, I usually go back and read a little more.)

billywoods wrote:[..] I said (several times) that the lag I was experiencing recently was prohibitively long (>10 seconds per move on average) and led to me losing games on time? [..]

IF the lag really is the fault of KGS then both players at least have the same chance of losing on time, no? So … <g,d&r>

I for one understand billywood's frustration. The majority of the english speaking go community plays on KGS. Not being able to do so must be very frustrating, independent of discussions of responsibility or obligation.

billywoods wrote:

bleep wrote:KGS does seem to have a small lag, but nothing I would complain about. I think people need to take a step back and see what they are getting

bleep wrote:forgive me if I missed something pertinent

Did you miss the part where I said (several times) that the lag I was experiencing recently was prohibitively long (>10 seconds per move on average) and led to me losing games on time? Or where I said it would often take so long to change from one room tab to another that I wouldn't even bother to start a game? (With respect, if I think I have missed something pertinent, I usually go back and read a little more.)

I wasn't really targeting specific posters, just the general attitude. And I still don't feel that I missed anything pertinent.

That said, I can also understand your frustration, I just don't see that there is much to be done about it unfortunately.

'Please, sir, I want some more.'

The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupified astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear.

'What!' said the master at length, in a faint voice.

'Please, sir,' replied Oliver, 'I want some more.'

The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arm; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.

The board were sitting in solemn conclave, when Mr. Bumble rushed into the room in great excitement, and addressing the gentleman in the high chair, said,

'Mr. Limbkins, I beg your pardon, sir! Oliver Twist has asked for more!'

There was a general start. Horror was depicted on every countenance.

'For MORE!' said Mr. Limbkins. 'Compose yourself, Bumble, and answer me distinctly. Do I understand that he asked for more, after he had eaten the supper allotted by the dietary?'

'He did, sir,' replied Bumble.

'That boy will be hung,' said the gentleman in the white waistcoat. 'I know that boy will be hung.'