Life In 19x19

We are working on the video. We had some delays trying to include a difficult but very valuable feature.

As we publish the video we will open up the supporter blog so everyone can check out the latest.

Stay tuned!

danielm wrote:

Bantari wrote:I mean... I don't mind supporting it because it is a good idea, but why should I play there? I bet I am not alone asking this.
Go servers are like bars. Nobody wants to sit in a bar alone, so people go where people are. But how to get the initial people in?

It is weird, the answer to this question is so clear in my head, but it is not easy to put it into words. I would probably sum it up with one word: Accessibility.

To mention a few thoughts in no particular order:

• As a website, it is much easier to hang out on it than a dedicated application. For example I will certainly have the website open in a tab most of the time, just like currently I usually have OGS in the background. I don't generally have KGS running when I am not playing, especially not when I am doing something else / working.
• A modern "web 2.0 style" web application generally has a simple, lightweight, and inviting interface (and everything suggests that Kaya.gs will be no exception). Unfortunately this is not something seen in current Go websites and even less in Go applications, so it may be hard to recognise for everyone how much this is going to lower the barrier to entry.
• If there are not enough people yet for realtime games, one can start turn based games if/when that is supported. Something that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that Kaya.gs also has the potential to be a much more sophisticated alternative to OGS and DGS, which is already quite something. Personally, as much as I appreciate the service offered by OGS, I can't wait to switch to something slightly better designed.
• Kaya.gs is likely to be a good choice to use for showcasing games for example. As people link to games or other content on the server, they will naturally grow the population of it. There is a convergence of services which is simply not possible within a traditional desktop client.
• Gabriel and Patricio seem to be quite good at generating enthusiasm, as the flurry of donations indicates. Many of us will be eager to spend a lot of time on the server/website right from the start. And giving that they want to turn this into their livelihood, they will be aware that active marketing is a requirement.

Sure, it will take a while for numbers to grow significantly. But the early days will also be the most exciting, and that should easily make up for a lower number of players. It's not like you have to stop playing on every other server.

I'm a huge KGS fan and probably won't make the switch till kaya.gs is stable, but on paper Kaya.GS sounds much better than KGS.

Simple things like not having idle time restrictions, being able to study tsumego online, and having things like leagues and tournaments integrated with the client are absolutely huge user interface improvements which could (read: should) have been done YEARS ago, but they are never done. In fact I've gotten shot down pretty hard when I've asked for simple little things or made simple suggestions (like if it would ever be possible to integrate league functionality into KGS or get an extension on the number of messages we could receive). Just look at KGS+, which rakes in a huge amount of money for KGS. KGS has taken in orders of magnitude more money than Kaya.GS yet the interface and administration behind it are unusable. Additionally it's too easy to lose access to old lectures. Access can't be transferred or paid for in retrospect and so on. There are dozens of other changes like skinning which could (should) have been done years ago which I suspect will be on Kaya.gs from the start, and it's my view that fortunately or unfortunately Kaya.gs really will make good on it's claim of killing the other go servers.

One positive development I hope comes out of this is that wms decides to monetize his absolutely huge collection of lectures and sell a 3 DVD set of "the best of KGS Plus". I'd buy it. But will that ever happen? No, because it would make sense ^^

Kaya.gs wrote: Picture the following 2 scenarios with the way pretty much all major servers work today:

1) You talk to a go player that is not tech savyy. You tell him to go to a server to play go. The series of steps he has to do before he starts a game is astounding.
a) go to the page
b) download client
c) log in as a guest
Now he sees an entirely new thing he doesnt know how to use, that has no "start game" or anything of the sort.
d) look for someone to help him/assist him into starting a game
As opposed to-
a) Got to the page
b) log in with a form any browser user in the world would understand
c) enter and be able to play a game a click away

2) Another classical example is that you want to share a game being played with someone. "MilanMilan is playing", "they are relaying a pro game", "check out the game i just played"
All those things have enormous friction to share, as the other person has to potentially install cgoban to enter, and look for it.
With a web client, you just share a link. The other user clicks on it, and he is there. Only 1 step.

I'd like to speak out a bit as a Java programmer, and remind people that the reason why people think Java sucks is because Microsoft wanted you to think that. However, Java (today) is a lot more stable now that Internet Explorer has been losing market share. (What did you think? You were using windows.)

At any rate you are right that Java is everywhere, and it is even everywhere that Javascript is not. With Android's support of Java, and iPhone's decision to drop flash (and Adobe's decision to drop flash on mobile platforms, and to move away from Flash in general) Java is really the only modern programming langauge available to developers which runs on phones, the web, desktops, and every desktop from mac to linux. It may work against you to throw out Java at this particular time. The tide is changing somewhat. But that being said, I would like to focus on the list you've presented above. I'd like to compare what you have said.

First I would like to remove the necessity for you to click on a link to access the site, since that is a requirement for all servers. Secondly, I'd like to remove the requirement for you to log on, since that is also a requirement for all servers including kaya.gs.

current-generation go server design:
b) download client
d) look for someone to help him/assist him into starting a game

kaya.gs remaining:
c) enter and be able to play a game a click away

Subtly, when removing the necessity to log in, I removed the necessity to log in as a guest, since when you go to kaya.gs the first time you are already logged in as a guest (observer).

I also don't feel it's appropriate to claim that on other servers people automatically don't know what to do, but that on kaya.gs everything will be intuitive.

So what are we left with? Kaya.gs is just like other go servers BUT it is more accessible because you don't need to download a client.

Well that isn't really true, the download of the client is merely hidden from the user because it is downloaded as javascript by the browser. Yes, I agree, there is a magic in that but I am just being completely fair from a technical standpoint.

So all in all there is really no difference between implementing kaya.gs in javascript, or in java, or anything else. The most important reason you should write it is because you are planning to listen to the user community.

Thank you.

Also, you don't have to download the KGS client to play on KGS. You can play from the web browser.

usagi wrote:With Android's support of Java, and iPhone's decision to drop flash (and Adobe's decision to drop flash on mobile platforms, and to move away from Flash in general) Java is really the only modern programming langauge available to developers which runs on phones, the web, desktops, and every desktop from mac to linux.

iOS does not support Java, and that's a large chunk of the mobile market right there.

usagi wrote: At any rate you are right that Java is everywhere, and it is even everywhere that Javascript is not. With Android's support of Java, and iPhone's decision to drop flash (and Adobe's decision to drop flash on mobile platforms, and to move away from Flash in general) Java is really the only modern programming langauge available to developers which runs on phones, the web, desktops, and every desktop from mac ...

Dreams, mistakes, false informations... (i am java/c#/flex all 3 together background)
1. My last Adobe Flex version and my Ipad2 are working together, phonegap, now adobe is not same as abandoning flash platform on mobile platforms.
2. I though C is everywhere not java ... i am more than happy that we finally persuaded others and officialy abandoned all java client interfaces 2y ago and switched them to flash/air
3. Android, iOS, Windows mobile... 1 Java subset support on 1 platform. But, but, but... java is everywhere, right? And even on android as game client/engine you often use OpenGL ES frameworks,same for other mobile/smartphone platforms


Back to kaya.gs. I prefer native interfaces but in mobile world their decision is much better than ignoring iOS and windows on mobiles like KGS did due to their java choice.

usagi wrote: I'd like to speak out a bit as a Java programmer, and remind people that the reason why people think Java sucks is because Microsoft wanted you to think that.

LOL.
I'd like to remind people that the reason why people think Microsoft sucks is because some Java programmers wanted you to think that.

I was all set to write a negative Nancy post about how kaya had flaked on us for the past month. But it turns out they just didn't post updates to L19. They have a video up, and the supporter blog is open for everyone to view.

hyperpape wrote:I was all set to write a negative Nancy post about how kaya had flaked on us for the past month. But it turns out they just didn't post updates to L19. They have a video up, and the supporter blog is open for everyone to view.

Yes, i haven't been posting here because it is more comfortable for me to post to the blog directly. I've been very busy with some international tournaments at the beginning of the month so didnt have that many updates to do either, however i did almost 2 posts a week on the blog, with pictures, and information.

We have reached over 130 supporters, and blogger didnt let me have more than 100 private users, so I decided to open up the blog. I could have gone for another solution to keep the blog semi-private but it just wasn't worth the effort.

We have been contacted by several people, some go entrepreneurs, some other go servers, and other kind of potential help to kaya. We are in really good shape, work is going good. Instead of going for a super early beta, or "alpha" we decided to make a video to show some of the progress we did. The video shows about 70% of the features included, leaving out a whole chunk that is yet not visually designed.

However, in the meantime we got our new logo, which only a lucky few were able to see so far. With the new logo, and when i return to Argentina next week, we will talk about the "definite" design of the server, which will look much much closer to the prototype than what it is today.
We will be working again on the finishing touches of the server and make the beta happen. We aim to launch before X-mas.

I want to remind participants that the site has a Feedback section where you can vote ideas or suggest other ones. Its filled with rich information right now, and some ideas have been implemented already!

It's really looking great. I hope it's not true though that its going to be intergrated with facebook Love the design work though

Why would integration with Facebook be a bad thing? I have some friends on KGS that I met years ago, but we don't have that much time to play each other anymore. Connecting it to Facebook would be handy, especially if kaya.gs would allow turn-based games where we could play a few moves at a time.

Plus, you can actually see who your opponent is, making the games more intimate and real.

I haven't checked the exact wording in this case, but connecting to Facebook is bad when you can't be disconnected or have other login options. I never use Facebook connect for logins, I prefer either twitter or plain old user name+password. Keep in mind there are a lot of people who do not use Facebook (or twitter, or Google Plus...)

lovely wrote:Why would integration with Facebook be a bad thing? I have some friends on KGS that I met years ago, but we don't have that much time to play each other anymore. Connecting it to Facebook would be handy, especially if kaya.gs would allow turn-based games where we could play a few moves at a time.

Plus, you can actually see who your opponent is, making the games more intimate and real.

Many people strongly dislike facebook's commitment to slowly eroding the privacy of its users. Whilst I have no problem with voluntary facebook integration, I'd strongly oppose anything compulsory. As far as I remember, the developers don't plan to make it compulsory, if they implement it at all.

lovely wrote:Why would integration with Facebook be a bad thing? I have some friends on KGS that I met years ago, but we don't have that much time to play each other anymore. Connecting it to Facebook would be handy, especially if kaya.gs would allow turn-based games where we could play a few moves at a time.

Plus, you can actually see who your opponent is, making the games more intimate and real.

Facebook as an option wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. If it was so integrated that all of the social features and logins required facebook I would not be in favour of that.

This discussion was totally blown out of proportion lol. Of course it wouldnt be mandatory. I think that noone made a reasonable argument not to integrate it, except personal dislike.

I will very likely make a facebook login, and potentially other features later on. I think potential investors would like to see that, and i would surely use it.

Flash of activity in a second in this thread. Hopefully people that read this also contribute to the Feedback section of the site .

As i said before im posting regularly on the blog,including pictures of the server. Today (about 40 mins ago) i finished the last missing piece of the flow to play games. Its already 100% playable on Kaya: opening games, starting, watching, finishing, playing again. Its working neat.

We are getting closer and closer!