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Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:29 pm
by fwiffo
Black suggestion:
$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0I like Jedo's move (
a ) best, but just to provide another alternative, I'll suggest this.
First off, why do I like Jedo's move? Because it's the natural and obvious way to attack
. It was the move I immediately considered when seeing white's move. Lean on strong stones to build up strength, while simultaneously moving out to defend our stones and prevent us from getting shut in. If white ignores it to defend
by extending, the aji of our right side stone comes to life. If he responds, we can pincer
and attack strongly.
As for my move, it defends the corner territory while threatening to connect up to our side stone.
$$B white 2 tenuki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B white 2 tenukiOn the other hand, white can defend simply by descending, which leaves a big follow-up for white in the corner later. But we can come back and get
a too, if white does decide to defend.
Finally, I think tenuki is probably a bad idea. The lower right is clearly the hot area of the board with white's attackable stone peeking up our open skirt.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:38 pm
by Jordus
Black Move Suggestion:
$$Bcm19 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm19 - B:0 - W:0Here we go... just something different...
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:57 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0I'll make the move now so our honorable opponents can proceed with their debate.
My comments will come later.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:25 am
by tj86430
WIC:
I will start by suggesting the most obvious (to me at least):
$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WcIf we don't defend here, I believe all sorts of nasty things become possible. There may be other good moves in this area, but this seems most natural to me.
If I was convinced we could tenuki, then I would suggest a)
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:15 am
by topazg
$$Wcm20 Move 20
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20Apologies to both of the other two of you, but this I see as completely forced, if we are to be consistent with our awesome game winning strategy. Thanks for the prompt post TJ
To teammates:
Black's almost definitely going to pincer now, but may lean - please can we have a think about how we respond to all of the following:
$$Wcm20 Move 20
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20Ideally, if we can get sente here, we get to return to the to left as well - if we can manage this, I think we are still looking good for this game, but it's only going to get more complicated from here!
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:37 am
by tj86430
WIC:
topazg wrote: Black's almost definitely going to pincer now, but may lean - please can we have a think about how we respond to all of the following:
$$Wcm20 Move 20
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20My first thoughts: to a) and c) I would respond at f) (or possibly e)). To b) and d) either at f) or K2. To e) most likely L3 and finally to f) I would respond at c).
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:53 am
by gaius
topazg wrote: Ideally, if we can get sente here, we get to return to the to left as well - if we can manage this, I think we are still looking good for this game, but it's only going to get more complicated from here!
Sure, ideally white would like to get sente! But if they don't get it, they will have a problem, because a black pincer at the top left looks really scary. That is why white's tenuki two moves ago was a big overplay - they should have defended the top left IMO.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:51 am
by topazg
Finally my comments on 18:
The move:
$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0To team and observers:
@TJ: I think the top left is more urgent than the lower right, and I really think White should have played there, but I don't want to give Black such an easy job of extending out from the corner. If we are going to play 5-4 and let Black take the 3-3, we must seal in for thickness - letting Black crawl out on the top uncontested feels inadequate for White.
As both other players suggested moves elsewhere, I had to pick a move I wanted to play in the lower right that feels like it's good locally for us, and I just hope we get sente back for the top left. I find it ironic that I suggested tenuki options strongly and then wish I had more local ones
@Chew: I think this move is big, though locally I'd probably play it a bit differently now, and I agree we want to remove the aji of that stone, but the goal of this sequence is to force Black to fix our weaknesses for us while keeping the pressure up on his group. Depending on how Black develops his position on the lower side, we may have some reasonable success here, but it is a hard fight.
@Red: I like this move because it's so undermining of Black's position, and seems to have a nice "flow" (to quote a magicwandism). We are steadily creating a position where Black hasn't gotten the points that he'd like from 4 corner positions.
There is a real urgent position in the top left that we want to return to, and some great aji in the top right and, depending on how/whether Black settles in the lower right, down there too. I have no idea who's going to come out of this with more points. I think Black has an easier position to play and get an advantage, but White I think has good chances from here to do really well with some high precision moves.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:02 am
by fwiffo
Black chat:
Just the first couple possibilities that spring to mind:
$$Wcm20 Move 20
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20Attacking the M3 stone was why we were leaning, so
a seems like the most straightforward way to do that. Not sure if we can do
b first... It might not be best here.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:33 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Joaz Banbeck wrote: ...
Comments about previous move, for both teammates and observers:
The logic here is rather simple. The two areas proposed are the top left and bottom right. Right now, the lower right is more important.
If they attack in the upper left, the worst they can do is push us down, but we live. A 3-3 invasion of the 5-4 is standard joseki. ( I don't actually know the joseki, but I'm sure that with three suggestions per move, we can find it over the board if the need arises. ) At worst, we still live. Our 3-3 has control of eye space. Jordus' suggestion is no doubt the proper way to continue in the corner if we decide to do so, but it is not urgent.
If they attack in the lower right, there are all kinds of forcing moves, some of which permanently remove any possibility of us getting eyes down there. So that makes the lower right more urgent.
Stardard defensive policy for an attacked group is to either secure eye space, or secure a path to run out.
$$Wcm
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WcmThat was a fairly simple decision. The next is not.
The two suggested moves were:
$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0To survive any attacks against us, we can either push out with 'a' or grab eye space with 'b'. I'm not even going to bother to read it out: as a matter of style, I'd rather fight than hide in the corner. On top of that, even Fwiffo - who suggested 'b' - likes 'a' better.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:56 am
by topazg
To strong observers, as it is too late now:
Was
better here:
$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0I didn't like it as much as the low move, but it's been bugging me for a while - answers in a hidden postcard fine, but let me know when I (and other interested players) can look
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:58 am
by Joaz Banbeck
fwiffo wrote: Black chat:
Just the first couple possibilities that spring to mind:
$$Wcm20 Move 20
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20Attacking the M3 stone was why we were leaning, so
a seems like the most straightforward way to do that. Not sure if we can do
b first... It might not be best here.
For observers and teammates:
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:01 am
by Joaz Banbeck
topazg wrote: To strong observers, as it is too late now:
Was
better here:
$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0I didn't like it as much as the low move, but it's been bugging me for a while - answers in a hidden postcard fine, but let me know when I (and other interested players) can look
It is clearly not as good as the move that you chose. Like M3, it is an overplay, but unlike M3 it does not threaten our eyespace with O2.
And it is not enough to threaten to lock us in:
$$Wcm18
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 If we get locked in, we are taking fifth rank territory, along with most of the lower side.
Or we can push out, and let white struggle for eyespace:
$$Wcm18
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 Either continuation seems inferior to the current game position.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:11 am
by topazg
Joaz Banbeck wrote: It is clearly not as good as the move that you chose. Like M3, it is an overplay, but unlike M3 it does not threaten our eyespace with O2.
And it is not enough to threaten to lock us in:
$$Wcm18
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 If we get locked in, we are taking fourth rank territory, along woth most of the
I was actually hoping for someone rather stronger than either of us to comment
I ask as it's a fairly typical shape with respect to the two marked stones, and whilst I don't like it as much as the lower move for various tactical considerations I have discussed elsewhere, it also has other merits that probably are not enough due to being on the 4th line (rather than the shape typically played on the 3rd line - see magicwand vs wms' Malkovich game). I also think
in your diagram in no way guarantees taking 4th line territory.
Also, I think that M3 is an overplay needs to be proved over the board still, don't you?
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:16 am
by Joaz Banbeck
The post that you quote was unfinished. I was trying to correct a typo and accidentally posted it.
topazg wrote: Also, I think that M3 is an overplay needs to be proved over the board still, don't you?
I'm waiting for suggestions to crush it.
. It was the move I immediately considered when seeing white's move. Lean on strong stones to build up strength, while simultaneously moving out to defend our stones and prevent us from getting shut in. If white ignores it to defend 
I ask as it's a fairly typical shape with respect to the two marked stones, and whilst I don't like it as much as the lower move for various tactical considerations I have discussed elsewhere, it also has other merits that probably are not enough due to being on the 4th line (rather than the shape typically played on the 3rd line - see magicwand vs wms' Malkovich game). I also think 
in your diagram in no way guarantees taking 4th line territory.
