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Big Brother Malkovich #5

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8271

Page 16 of 20

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:38 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Splatted wrote:Just so you all know, I'm starting uni on monday (and moving there on saturday) so my move rate might be slow for a while. I'm sure I'll be able to make time for it but things will be a little hectic at first. :salute:


Hehehe...it is time to make a really complicated position. :twisted:

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:41 am
by TIM82
Initial feeling is 3 points incoming - seems like black should have extended from the other stone in the crosscut, now we can just capture that? Well, if Joaz approves, I 'll have to try to read more too :D

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:46 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
skydyr wrote:...I can't see anything spectacular...


Younger brother must be jaded. :lol:

This:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X .
$$ | . . 1 X O .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]

...looks spectacular to me.

I see it as this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X .
$$ | . . X X O .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]

...with two extra stones.

Sure, they have the move in a symmetrical position, but that is ONE move. We have TWO extra stones. That is a net advantage to us.
My initial reading shows that we kill in almost all variations. :rambo:

I have to read a bit to make sure that there is no freak variation that subverts the general principle, but barring that, I'm going to disapprove and move the stone as indicated.


Besides, I'm really pleased with D9, and my ego can't just let it go. :-?

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:21 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
For reasons noted in my previous 4 or 5 posts, I disapprove.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 :b18: :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X C . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 0 X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:00 am
by Splatted
It looks like this might revert to the position shown in my previous post except without the F11 G12 exchange. That obviously favours black, but there's some reason I thought he had to defend that cut so I'm going to do some reading before I continue.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:10 pm
by Splatted
So both me and skydyr thought that black needed to defend that cut, but Joaz thinks otherwise? I'm getting my board out for some serious reading and we'll see about this! :twisted:

P.s. This is deliberately not in hide tags. :razz:

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:24 pm
by skydyr
Splatted wrote:So both me and skydyr thought that black needed to defend that cut, but Joaz thinks otherwise? I'm getting my board out for some serious reading and we'll see about this! :twisted:

P.s. This is deliberately not in hide tags. :razz:


I'm sure Joaz has a killer sequence 15 moves deep that will completely destroy your potential there. The only trick is the 45 points it'll cost our side to play it :p

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:06 pm
by Splatted
I'm going for it!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Conditional move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 2 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thoughts:

I really think Joaz has made a mistake here. The key is that after this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 :b18: :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 1 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W X 2 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked white stones appear dead, but they're actually not.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 :b18: :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O # # . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . 3 B B W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


None of my reading shows a way in which this ends well for black. He's been split in to two incredibly weak groups and that means white's cutting stone is in no danger. It also means that my weak group on the top is now relatively safe.


I'll leave you with my favourite sequence from all my reading.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :b18: :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 3 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 5 4 1 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :b18: :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O X 1 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 3 O 5 2 . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's nice to dream. :D


May the best player(s) win. :salute:

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:29 am
by TIM82
Quite busy for the rest of the week. Will try to get to this on Sunday, probably not earlier. Sorry. Intrepid, if you are reading, same thing for our game.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:46 am
by Joaz Banbeck
skydyr wrote:
Splatted wrote:So both me and skydyr thought that black needed to defend that cut, but Joaz thinks otherwise? I'm getting my board out for some serious reading and we'll see about this! :twisted:

P.s. This is deliberately not in hide tags. :razz:


I'm sure Joaz has a killer sequence 15 moves deep that will completely destroy your potential there. The only trick is the 45 points it'll cost our side to play it :p


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

45 points??? I have more faith in you than that.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:02 pm
by TIM82
Tried to post this yesterday, but internet connection died. Happily I managed to retrieve the message content.

---

Sorry, disapproved.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w15:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sadly we can't atari and cut IMHO, it has too big an effect on top. After :b3: below, we'll have to use :w4: to stop the ladder of marked stone and :w2: , and then black will play :b5:, which captures the three marked white stones (or if we insist on saving them, we will just lose even more stones above.). Letting black capture those three stones seems really bad to me, our stones above will then be under severe attack.

There are multiple options for :w4:, bot none of them seem cabable of avoiding the above scenario.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :b18: :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O X W W W 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 3 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Chosen move threatens to capture the two black stones without giving black the attack on top, making black's last move wasted. Can't see a really good answer for black, lets see what they come up with :)

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:12 am
by Splatted
I guess we'll never know... :D

I really want to read that hide tag. I can't say I'm surprised there's something I overlooked, but this is different from all the other corrections in that I thought this was the "correct" move.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:51 am
by Joaz Banbeck
For observers:
Now I am confused. It seems to me that it all relevant variations, white had to play E11 sooner or later. Obviously, Tim82 disagrees.
:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
I must look again.

But he does agree with me that C9/D9 are important. Otherwise he would not have paid three stones to hane them.

The next move is fairly obvious. We have to hane at B8.
Err..well...we have to sooner or later. But interposing B10 or E8 first may be needed.

When all is said and done, the important thing here is not that we get the exact correct move, but that younger brother comes to the realization that we have bet the farm on the D9/C9 group. Surely he will see this soon. I paid three stones each to play them. And Tim82 recognizes how important they are, for he just paid three stones to hane them.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:49 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w15:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 7 at 1, 8 at 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 6 2 5 9 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 1 O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | 4 W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There's this lovely tombstone I can see in the future...

I don't see a way for white to ignore it as black can capture the two white stones in a ladder so long as he isn't in atari, and it should fix up the cut that white has been aiming at so that the two black stones can be pulled out as necessary.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:53 am
by skydyr
Wait a sec...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . 6 8 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 1 O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This gets more complicated...
All times are UTC-07:00
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