$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 O 4 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O a . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 O 4 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O a . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
works because d11 is down one liberty. White cannot connect d11 on either side without letting black through. Black might not play it right away, but it's there.
Liberty-wise, it's the same as this:
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 O 4 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O a . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 O 4 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O a . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:02 pm
by Violence
Correct, Daniel. Edit: I'm afk and on my phone, so I didn't want to post diagrams. Daniel summed it up for me.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:34 am
by Fredrik
Sorry if I'm overstepping any boundaries here, I don't want to point at any fingers (but I do not want to make a new thread about it either, thus the reason I ask it here, but any admins, please feel free to delete my message as you see fit) but shouldn't the observers ask questions about possible variations after the local area has been finished?
I do understand that these questions have no intention of "harm", and the posters do just want to understand more, but sometimes even stronger players can overlook simple things, or might identify deeper and stronger variations ideas by hearing inputs even from a weaker player. For the above stated reason, I personally believe that it's important to create a "unwritten rule", that the observers shouldn't comment on variations that are yet to be played.
If this becomes a common habit, even stronger players might comment in this fashion which could change the outcome of the game heavily.
(Just want to state again that no one should feel offended by my post, just wanted to add my 2 cents ^^)
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:42 am
by cyclops
Your point is taken. I'll hide next time my ignorant questions. I didnt dream that anything I as 7k would observe or ask could influence the flow of the game. I feel like a mouse betweeen two fighting elephants.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:46 am
by topazg
cyclops wrote:Your point is taken. I'll hide next time my ignorant questions. I didnt dream that anything I as 7k would observe or ask could influence the flow of the game. I feel like a mouse betweeen two fighting elephants.
My 2c is the opposite. More questions like this should be asked. The purpose of a Malkovich game isn't for one player to win, it's to be an educational learning experience. If you don't ask these questions, it may as well just be another turn-based server game.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:22 am
by Fredrik
topazg wrote:
cyclops wrote:Your point is taken. I'll hide next time my ignorant questions. I didnt dream that anything I as 7k would observe or ask could influence the flow of the game. I feel like a mouse betweeen two fighting elephants.
My 2c is the opposite. More questions like this should be asked. The purpose of a Malkovich game isn't for one player to win, it's to be an educational learning experience. If you don't ask these questions, it may as well just be another turn-based server game.
Sorry, maybe I didn't express my point properly. The questions are very important for a Malkovich game. My concern was when the observers suggest possible moves which might affect the variations that are being played, for example discussing future moves with the players. I think waiting a few moves until the variation has been finished, then ask why the player didn't play a certain move is more proper, not suggest moves that still might be a good move in the game.
For example: if Violence played on the rightside and I then ask a question. "Why do you play on the rightside, isn't X move at the leftside much more important?". Magicwand responds to Violences move on the leftside and then Violence proceed to play on the leftside cause he agreed with my comment. This is the scenario I rather not see happen, not implying that it happened yet but the possibility is there. Rather I could have waited until someone first played on the leftside and then ask, "Why did both players focus on the rightside, wasn't X move at the leftside the vital point?" this way I would remove the possibility of changing the outcome of the game.
(For Cyclops: There was nothing wrong with your comment, it was not yours that raised my concern, please don't feel intimidated ) (For topazg: Sure, the Malkovich games are educational and for learning, but as we can clearly identify, but in clear magicwand fashion, he has made the game become more then that and now they are battling for pride )
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:47 am
by topazg
Fredrik wrote:
topazg wrote:
cyclops wrote:Your point is taken. I'll hide next time my ignorant questions. I didnt dream that anything I as 7k would observe or ask could influence the flow of the game. I feel like a mouse betweeen two fighting elephants.
My 2c is the opposite. More questions like this should be asked. The purpose of a Malkovich game isn't for one player to win, it's to be an educational learning experience. If you don't ask these questions, it may as well just be another turn-based server game.
Sorry, maybe I didn't express my point properly. The questions are very important for a Malkovich game. My concern was when the observers suggest possible moves which might affect the variations that are being played, for example discussing future moves with the players. I think waiting a few moves until the variation has been finished, then ask why the player didn't play a certain move is more proper, not suggest moves that still might be a good move in the game.
For example: if Violence played on the rightside and I then ask a question. "Why do you play on the rightside, isn't X move at the leftside much more important?". Magicwand responds to Violences move on the leftside and then Violence proceed to play on the leftside cause he agreed with my comment. This is the scenario I rather not see happen, not implying that it happened yet but the possibility is there. Rather I could have waited until someone first played on the leftside and then ask, "Why did both players focus on the rightside, wasn't X move at the leftside the vital point?" this way I would remove the possibility of changing the outcome of the game.
(For Cyclops: There was nothing wrong with your comment, it was not yours that raised my concern, please don't feel intimidated ) (For topazg: Sure, the Malkovich games are educational and for learning, but as we can clearly identify, but in clear magicwand fashion, he has made the game become more then that and now they are battling for pride )
Yes, your point is well made here, and on this basis I agree - I just felt rather like it might have come across rather as a chastisement before, and I'd hate to see the few people asking questions stop
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:13 am
by Bill Spight
Thick go boards, the ones with legs, typically have an indentation carved in the bottom, with a pyramid in the middle. My guess is that it helps keep the wood from splitting, and the pyramid is ornamental.
However, when I was learning go, I was told that the purpose of the pyramid was to hold the head of any kibitzer who said anything during the game.
One nice thing about Malkovich games is that the kibitzing can be hidden.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:42 am
by zinger
OK here's a question about the right side:
$$c $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . O . . | $$ . O . X . X O . . | $$ . . X . . X X O . | $$ . . X O X O X O . | $$ . . . . O O O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . X X X . . . . . | $$ O . O . . . . . . | $$ O . O . O O . 2 . | $$ . X . . O X O a . | $$ . . . . . X X b . | $$ . . . X . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------
[go]$$c $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . O . . | $$ . O . X . X O . . | $$ . . X . . X X O . | $$ . . X O X O X O . | $$ . . . . O O O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . X X X . . . . . | $$ O . O . . . . . . | $$ O . O . O O . 2 . | $$ . X . . O X O a . | $$ . . . . . X X b . | $$ . . . X . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------[/go]
In the game white played at a, but would 2 here have been better endgame? After black answered a at b, white is left with a nuissance cutting point.
I realize white was playing a ko threat, but if it loses points it is not good. Or so I think.
Yes, in terms of end-game you are correct. However, Violence move still has some merit. The move you suggested are gote, but here Violence got his nobi in sente. Black had the possibility to capture 1 stone all along, and if he decides to cut now White can easily sacrifice these two stones. "Sacrificing two stones are better then sacrificing one".
I don't think we can label Violence's move as a mistake, but you clearly bring up a great point. It's really hard to judge which result is better considering the whole-board.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:45 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Fredrik wrote:Sorry if I'm overstepping any boundaries here, I don't want to point at any fingers (but I do not want to make a new thread about it either, thus the reason I ask it here, but any admins, please feel free to delete my message as you see fit) but shouldn't the observers ask questions about possible variations after the local area has been finished?
Speaking as an admin, you are not overstepping boundaries at all. I wish that all such potential criticisms of other posters were expressed so politely.
Fredrik wrote: I do understand that these questions have no intention of "harm", and the posters do just want to understand more, but sometimes even stronger players can overlook simple things, or might identify deeper and stronger variations ideas by hearing inputs even from a weaker player. For the above stated reason, I personally believe that it's important to create a "unwritten rule", that the observers shouldn't comment on variations that are yet to be played.
If this becomes a common habit, even stronger players might comment in this fashion which could change the outcome of the game heavily. )
Taking off the admin hat...yeah, I'm one of the people at who you are pointing, and I am definitely stepping over the edge, as is Daniel when he replies. We are both making the judgement that this is so obvious to a player of Violence's strength that there is one-in-a-gazillion chance that he won't have seen it.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:50 am
by daniel_the_smith
Well, for this particular question, the game had already advanced to where it didn't matter... And I was just clarifying what Violence said...
But yes, perhaps we can be more cautious in the future.
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 O 4 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O a . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 O 4 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O a . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
works because d11 is down one liberty. White cannot connect d11 on either side without letting black through. Black might not play it right away, but it's there.
Liberty-wise, it's the same as this:
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 O 4 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O a . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=2, B=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 O 4 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O a . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Thanks.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:53 am
by zinger
Fredrik wrote:Yes, in terms of end-game you are correct. However, Violence move still has some merit. The move you suggested are gote, but here Violence got his nobi in sente. Black had the possibility to capture 1 stone all along, and if he decides to cut now White can easily sacrifice these two stones. "Sacrificing two stones are better then sacrificing one".
I don't think we can label Violence's move as a mistake, but you clearly bring up a great point. It's really hard to judge which result is better considering the whole-board.
I see your point about the whole board and possible sacrifice. If black cuts white gets about as much:
$$c $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . O . . | $$ . O . X . X O . . | $$ . . X . . X X O . | $$ . . X O X O X O . | $$ . . . . O O O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . X X X . . . . . | $$ O . O . . . 6 8 . | $$ O . O . O O 5 7 . | $$ . X . . O X O 2 9 | $$ . . . . . X X 3 . | $$ . . . X . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------
[go]$$c $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . O . . | $$ . O . X . X O . . | $$ . . X . . X X O . | $$ . . X O X O X O . | $$ . . . . O O O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . X X X . . . . . | $$ O . O . . . 6 8 . | $$ O . O . O O 5 7 . | $$ . X . . O X O 2 9 | $$ . . . . . X X 3 . | $$ . . . X . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------[/go]
So maybe black won't rush to cut anyway.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:35 am
by Violence
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think it's the simplest ko threat. If I play a sente move, he can get ko threats back with the follow up.
works because d11 is down one liberty. White cannot connect d11 on either side without letting black through. Black might not play it right away, but it's there.
)
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