Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:59 am
It's even more, around 2.7%as0770 wrote:If one engine scores 55% in a 400 game match, there is still a chance of 1% that it is _not_ stronger.
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Engine Tournament
Page 17 of 27
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:20 am
I didn't argue, that v. 0.14 absolutely stronger than v. 0.15, but most likely it's not weaker. And IMHO if the next version not stronger, than previous, that it's weakness of first one...as0770 wrote:
Or a weight file of similar strength. And once again: If one engine scores 55% in a 400 game match, there is still a chance of 1% that it is _not_ stronger.
If You'll open really page by the link, You'll find the next text (content of Readme.md file):as0770 wrote: Your link points to LeelaZero_PhoenixGo v1 and v2 but you were talking about Leela Zero v0.14 and 0.15. LeelaZero 0.14 don't support Phoenix networks. Results of LeelaZero_PhoenixGo v1 vs. LeelaZero_PhoenixGo v2 with Phoeniox Networks don't say anything about the strength of LeelaZero v0.14 and 0.15. I wouldn't even trust results with Leela networks.
So 'v1' & 'v2' are only the folders (i.e. a parts of link paths) and the engines are: "leela-zero-0.14-phoenix-go" and "leela-zero-0.15-phoenix-go"...LeelaZero_PhoenixGo
LeelaZero + PhoenixGo's weights.
0.15 + lizzie
Source Code
https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... lizzie.zip
Weights
V1: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... _v1.txt.gz
Leela Zero
Windows
CPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... ie.exe.zip
GPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... ie.exe.zip
0.15
Source Code
https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... nix-go.zip
Weights
V1: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... _v1.txt.gz
Leela Zero
Windows
CPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... pu.exe.zip
GPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... cl.exe.zip
0.14
Source Code
https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... nix-go.zip
Weights
V1: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... _v1.txt.gz
Leela Zero
Windows
CPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... pu.exe.zip
GPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... cl.exe.zip
Linux
CPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... 64_cpu.zip
GPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... opencl.zip
MacOS
CPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... 64_cpu.zip
GPU: https://github.com/yenw/LeelaZero_Phoen ... opencl.zip
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:27 am
And these quantitative calculations are true in used conditions (time control, number of playouts and so on) only...Vargo wrote:It's even more, around 2.7%as0770 wrote:If one engine scores 55% in a 400 game match, there is still a chance of 1% that it is _not_ stronger.
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:51 pm
You did. Thats what all the discussion is about:q30 wrote:I didn't argue, that v. 0.14 absolutely stronger than v. 0.15,
q30 wrote:LeelaZero 0.14 is a bit stronger (not as much, as in case of Phoenix), than 0.15 (details)...
Nevertheless it is not the same as the official Leela branch, did I already mention that Leela v0.14 doesn't support Phoenix networks?q30 wrote: If You'll open really page by the link, You'll find the next text
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:13 am
I think, You agree, that 0.15 version is not stronger, than 0.14 one. For most usual users it's the same, that new version is weaker: it's no a reason to download it. Have You any result of sparring, where 0.15 version was at most a bit stronger,than 0.14 one?as0770 wrote:You did. Thats what all the discussion is about:q30 wrote:I didn't argue, that v. 0.14 absolutely stronger than v. 0.15,
q30 wrote:LeelaZero 0.14 is a bit stronger (not as much, as in case of Phoenix), than 0.15 (details)...Nevertheless it is not the same as the official Leela branch, did I already mention that Leela v0.14 doesn't support Phoenix networks?q30 wrote: If You'll open really page by the link, You'll find the next text
You can do yourself 2 matches of v.014 vs v.0.15 with enough for You number of games with a very big time control (10 '/move, for example) and with GPU enabled: 1) with -p 1; 2) with -p 10000. If in second match will more % win of one engine, than it's stronger.
Version 0.14 of Phoenix LeelaZero supports Phoenix neuronets: see results
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:03 am
Don't you read the answers to your posts, do you just ignore them or don't you understand them? That is really ridiculous...q30 wrote:I think, You agree, that 0.15 version is not stronger, than 0.14 one. For most usual users it's the same, that new version is weaker: it's no a reason to download it. Have You any result of sparring, where 0.15 version was at most a bit stronger,than 0.14 one?as0770 wrote:You did. Thats what all the discussion is about:q30 wrote:I didn't argue, that v. 0.14 absolutely stronger than v. 0.15,
q30 wrote:LeelaZero 0.14 is a bit stronger (not as much, as in case of Phoenix), than 0.15 (details)...Nevertheless it is not the same as the official Leela branch, did I already mention that Leela v0.14 doesn't support Phoenix networks?q30 wrote: If You'll open really page by the link, You'll find the next text
You can do yourself 2 matches of v.014 vs v.0.15 with enough for You number of games with a very big time control (10 '/move, for example) and with GPU enabled: 1) with -p 1; 2) with -p 10000. If in second match will more % win of one engine, than it's stronger.
Version 0.14 of Phoenix LeelaZero supports Phoenix neuronets: see results
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:44 am
I'm not a moderator here, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to think this exchange has already gone far enough. If you want to keep throwing ad hominems around, it's best to keep it to private messages; pretty sure this thread was never meant to serve this purpose.
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:51 am
I simply try to answer questions here. It is somehow frustrating when you take time and effort to explain simple little facts, and the respondent consequently ignores them. I don't know if he is just trolling or if he don't understands anything. The purpose of a public forum is to discuss in public. And btw your post is way more off topic than ours. If you don't like the thread, just ignore it.yakcyll wrote:I'm not a moderator here, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to think this exchange has already gone far enough. If you want to keep throwing ad hominems around, it's best to keep it to private messages; pretty sure this thread was never meant to serve this purpose.
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:02 am
I didn't understand English well. But the same question is for You...as0770 wrote:...
Don't you read the answers to your posts, do you just ignore them or don't you understand them? That is really ridiculous...
If You yourself read and understand answers to Your posts, can You give answer to the question: You aren't agree, that Phoenix LeelaZero 0.14 is stronger, than 0.15 one (and if don't agree, than were is return proof in facts/results)?
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:25 am
Someone call the referee, plz.... 
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:36 am
The referee can be anyone with modern Nvidia video card, that will do the next:
(especially in case of Phoenix)...2 matches of v.014 vs v.0.15 with statistically enough number of games with a very big time control (10 '/move, for example) and with GPU enabled: 1) with -p 1; 2) with -p 10000. If in second match will more % win of one engine, than it's stronger (for more reliability one can add the third match with -p 1000 to receive intermediate value of % win).
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:53 am
I didn't say it is not stronger. I said 50,8% winrate is far away from proofing anything, and you should simply accept this fact.q30 wrote:You aren't agree, that Phoenix LeelaZero 0.14 is stronger, than 0.15 one
Especially when testing different versions of one engine, the small differences in strength will result in a higher winrate than when testing different engines. So for me 50,8% mean that both versions are equal in strength.
I don't want to proof it because I would have to play many thousands of games,q30 wrote:(and if don't agree, than were is return proof in facts/results)?
But why don't you take a look at Leela's changelog:
Code: Select all
This is a bugfix release for training game generation.
Bugfix to Dirichlet noise being more uniform than intended (bug was introduced in v0.13).
Tweaks to randomized move selection in training games to reduce needless blunders. Added extra options.There is NO difference in gameplay for the official Leela and I don't care if there is a tiny difference in some Leela hack.
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:09 am
How I had mentioned above, the difference in strength may be results from difference in performance, maden by changes in Phoenix LeelaZero code.
So, the only proof is "LeelaZero_phoenix_0.15 - LeelaZero_phoenix_0.14: 0 - 4", i.e. Phoenix LeelaZero v.0.14 is stronger, that v.0.15...
So, the only proof is "LeelaZero_phoenix_0.15 - LeelaZero_phoenix_0.14: 0 - 4", i.e. Phoenix LeelaZero v.0.14 is stronger, that v.0.15...
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:14 am
If you roll a dice the chance of a 4-0 is 12,5%. If you play matches between two engines the chance of a 4-0 is >= 12,5% because possible duplicated moves, differences in compilation and of course differences in strength.q30 wrote:How I had mentioned above, the difference in strength may be results from difference in performance, maden by changes in Phoenix LeelaZero code.
So, the only proof is "LeelaZero_phoenix_0.15 - LeelaZero_phoenix_0.14: 0 - 4", i.e. Phoenix LeelaZero v.0.14 is stronger, that v.0.15...
Re: Engine Tournament
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:46 am
Compilation was the same (PC, system soft and compilation parameters).
Because other proofs (with bigger %, i.e. in big plays number matches with GPU enabled) are absent, on this moment the approval "version 14 is stronger, that 15 one" is true...
Because other proofs (with bigger %, i.e. in big plays number matches with GPU enabled) are absent, on this moment the approval "version 14 is stronger, that 15 one" is true...