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115 - robinz v. 1986

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3740

Page 17 of 31

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:00 pm
by illluck
My guess is that white missed that black can play S13.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:15 pm
by oren
illluck wrote:My guess is that white missed that black can play S13.

I was wondering if anyone had a sequence where white can live. I'm just not seeing anything at a quick glance.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:08 pm
by Koroviev
1986 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm146 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


im alive, well almost alive, it cost me two moves so im still not
where i want to be as far as the center goes but im in the game :)


Alive? To my admittedly feeble eyes, W looks very dead here. Am I missing something?

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:14 pm
by EdLee
Unhidden after :black:191:
illluck wrote:My guess is that white missed that black can play S13.
Yes, very likely.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:12 pm
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm146 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I spent a while reading here - and for a while had convinved myself that white had just succeeded in dying in gote twice in a row :-? But then I had a hard time finding a kill in the following line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 5 4 |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . 2 X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Probably I have better moves than the above, but I couldn't find any alternatives that kill.

I absolutely 100% stand by my assertion that white's last move was death in gote, though. I think it's absolutely clear that white is dead now, and think concrete variations are slightly superfluous. But feel free to ask if you want me to demonstrate a refutation of any particular white attempt at life. (If you do, most likely it'll be because I've gone wrong and will realise that I can't kill :lol:)

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:15 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm148 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 1 |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


gosh darnnit its so obvious ...
*get yourself back together E* 
OK... talk about wishful thinking
*sigh* 
this moves forces a response,
and gives me some time to figure out 
what i should do next
*cigarette break*

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:34 pm
by Aphelion
1986:
Every move you play just because it "forces a response" is bad and just makes it harder for you to win. You eliminate aji for white and burn valuable ko threats. If you don't know where else to play, stop and think about it before playing a move purely because its sente.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:01 pm
by robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm148 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I definitely still have to respond to this, if white gets to capture, then a and b are miai for an eye at S13:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm148 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O a |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . c b X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But I have a few options for keeping white dead. I like this obvious solid connection though - it seems to leave least aji/ko threats, and by firmly capturing 2 of white's stones (and thus giving me an eye) it helps me in any capturing race that could develop (not that I was ever really worried about this).

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:42 pm
by lightvector
1986:
1986 wrote:this moves forces a response,
and gives me some time to figure out 
what i should do next


In a timed game, sometimes you can play a sente move or a ko threat to gain thinking time. On the board, it's a loss to waste a ko threat in this way, but even pros do it occasionally when they're in a critical situation and really need more time to think.

But this is not a timed game. There is no reason to play a move purely to give yourself time to figure out what to do, because you can already take as long as you want.

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:10 pm
by EdLee
robinz, 1986: the move numbers look messed up a bit around :w46:.

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:16 pm
by EdLee
robinz, Unhidden after :black:191:
The atari :b1:, setting up a snapback, is better than :black:(a) in the game ( :b49: ?) for two reasons:
:black: (a) reduced your own points by 1; :b1: puts both :ws: and :wc: in atari, not just :ws::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ X X X . . . . |
$$ O O O O O O . |
$$ O X X X X O . |
$$ X O . . X X X |
$$ O . O X O @ 1 |
$$ . . . X a X W |
$$ . . . . X O . |
$$ . X O X O O . |
$$ X . X X X O . |
$$ X O O O X O . |
$$ O X X O O . . |
$$ . O X O X O . |
$$ . O X X X X . |[/go]

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:25 pm
by EdLee
1986,
1986 wrote:this moves forces a response
What Aphelion and lightvector said.
Not all sente/forcing moves are good: there are good sente and bad sente moves.
You often play bad sente moves. I do, too. :) Learn to tell the difference -- it's an endless process.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:38 pm
by 1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm150 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O 1 |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That makes a lot of sense because i might need those KO threats,
i never though of it that way hmmmn,
i seen a lecture on Gou's site about good and bad sente
I'm going to watch it today,

i played this move to create eye space,
i got the feeling I'm burning all the hope i had for life out of this group,
but i gotta try, I'm on my last leg :blackeye:

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:20 pm
by Redundant
... the rarely seen death in double gote.

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:29 pm
by Aphelion
1986:
Ko threats are only part of the equation. Even without a ko on the board, the moves you have just played are aji. If something changes on the board later, they can work. You are behind, so you need to conserve as much aji as possible, and later on you can make huge comebacks with that kind of aji. However, if you play them now they will never work, and you are just making life easier for White as you take away all his pressing worries. If I were white, I would say "thank you" everytime Black makes a move like that.

Your last move is also guilty of this. Instead of trying to create eye space, you should read out whether the group can live (its not so hard an exercise). If it can, great. If not, leave it, it may yield results later on.
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