Life In 19x19

Boidhre wrote:You're thinking of regular 3,3 josekies. I'm talking about 3,3 josekies when black has a small knight's enclosure or similar on one side.

owh, I see. the answering is at one point jump than hoshi point. I got this info from one of my game in OGS. so, please choose one or make the new one. but, from the comment above. U want to invade at 3,3 if ur opponent already has keima? I suggest for not doing it.
here's the result:

Actually, w can hane under at the 4-2 point to get a ko, iirc. But if I understand correctly what you're saying, Boidhre - someone invaded your enclosure and lived outright - it's not really a matter of memorizing joseki, but of sharpening your instincts for life and death.

jts wrote:Actually, w can hane under at the 4-2 point to get a ko, iirc. But if I understand correctly what you're saying, Boidhre - someone invaded your enclosure and lived outright - it's not really a matter of memorizing joseki, but of sharpening your instincts for life and death.

hello, jts. can u show us the details diagram? I still don't get it. thanks before

jts wrote:Actually, w can hane under at the 4-2 point to get a ko, iirc. But if I understand correctly what you're saying, Boidhre - someone invaded your enclosure and lived outright - it's not really a matter of memorizing joseki, but of sharpening your instincts for life and death.

No, I invaded and lived outright so um, yeah.

But afterwards I figured that I should have died there.

Actually here's the game in question, just to clear things up:

Boidhre wrote:

jts wrote:Actually, w can hane under at the 4-2 point to get a ko, iirc. But if I understand correctly what you're saying, Boidhre - someone invaded your enclosure and lived outright - it's not really a matter of memorizing joseki, but of sharpening your instincts for life and death.

No, I invaded and lived outright so um, yeah.

But afterwards I figured that I should have died there.

I rest my case.

BakEkoq, I'm on a mobile device right now so I can't make the diagrams, but you can check it out yourself at sites like josekipedia, eidogo, daily joseki, etc.

Actually, wing might be better than enclosure as a word there? Hmm, I might have been confusing people.

Enclosure in the right word. "wing", as in "double wing formation", is usually the long extension to the adjacent star point.

You did fine in the lower left, but you lost your nerve in the endgame - s12, s12!

Boidhre wrote:Do I need to care about joseki? I won a game and got to 12k but I didn't know the joseki for a 33 invasion into a single encosure hoshi. Or at my level can I just fight instead. Since most of my opponents seem as clueless as me about joseki.

No, don't study joseki yet. If you read and play what you think is the best move, you will be playing joseki. Afterwards, you can check on a site like dailyjoseki.com if other people had played it. If they hadn't... then you have to figure out why.

I have to disagree with oren. There's really no need to reinvent the wheel and remember inferior sequences- at least look up the most common situations (e.g. sansna invasion into just the 4-4, into 4-4 with keima, into 4-4 with ogeima). A lot of the shapes and sequences in those situations are also applicable in other places.

illluck wrote:I have to disagree with oren. There's really no need to reinvent the wheel and remember inferior sequences- at least look up the most common situations (e.g. sansna invasion into just the 4-4, into 4-4 with keima, into 4-4 with ogeima). A lot of the shapes and sequences in those situations are also applicable in other places.

Certainly, if you feel flummoxed after a game by a certain corner exchange, your first instinct should be to ask a stronger player to review it with you and your second instinct should be to consult a joseki dictionary to get some ideas.

But "learning joseki", if that means "memorizing joseki", isn't horribly productive if your sense of life and death, shape, endgame, reading, etc. isn't strong enough to understand why you're playing the moves you memorized. If your opponent deviates, you're helpless. If the situation on the board is slightly different, you're helpless. Later in the game when you want to press your advantage or defend locally, you're helpless.

In other words, so long as his opponents can't kill that invasion, he should focus on continuing to improve his L&D. Once they are killing it consistently, then he could learn the ko sequence by heart, but he could also keep studying L&D - at a certain point, you don't have to "memorize" that sequence, it just makes so much sense that seeing it once is good.

bakekoq wrote:

jts wrote:Actually, w can hane under at the 4-2 point to get a ko, iirc.

hello, jts. can u show us the details diagram? I still don't get it. thanks before

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc 3*3 with a Keima
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . 9 8 . . . . .
$$ | . 7 . 5 6 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

My time in turn based land has left my real time skills very rusty. Today I lost one game horribly (I won't post it as I already had a review from tchan) but in both I failed to kill an invasion into my moyo. In this game what I'm curious about is whether my strategy to kill the invader instead of containing them and allowing them to live small on the bottom was incorrect. I think it was, but I'm very, very new to moyo based play as an explicit plan.



A true mess of a game.

Looking for thoughts on general strategy here rather than anything else. All comments welcome.

Actually a more serious question:

Despite winning this I gave my opponent an awfully big territory on top. I'd like to know what I failed to do to seriously disrupt it. I think I'm being too timid about invading/reducing when moyo building myself but would welcome thoughts on this. No need for a fully review, just some ideas would be of great help.

If your opponent makes a big territory and you make a territory that's 13 pts bigger elsewhere, you didn't fail.

The most obvious place to reduce W's top is going to be before he finishes sketching it out. N17 at , for example; W's high stone at K16 is begging to be finished off with a low stone at O17 (which is already a big approach, isn't it?), so this is a big move for either player. Because W is so high, even after he plays O17 you can try strong-arm tactics like the H17 invasion; but of course, this will just transfer W's strength from the top side to the center.