Life In 19x19

Let's take them one by one... and start by my favorite :

Joseki #1 (just so that we can later refer to that number for future comments)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 a . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . 4 . . 1 b . 5 . .
$$ | . . c 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

- I understand that this is an "approach" and not an "attack" move...
- I play this variation instead of 'a' when I try to get sente
- I suppose this is play makes miai of making space for eyes with 5 next, or go into the corner if black plays at 'b'
- black gets its part of the corner
- white makes a two spaces extension to get a base...

'c' is a nice endgame move for both.

So I'm sure I'm missing things... so if you have a comment to make, that's very welcome

oca wrote: - I play this variation instead of 'a' when I try to get sente

Hi oca, this is interesting. On an empty board, you already have sente. Even when approaches, you still have sente and can tenuki.
( It is one nice feature of the star point opening: speed. )

Between the 4th line (a) and the 3rd line ,
I'm not really thinking in terms of sente/gote. How did you get this idea ? From your own actual battle experience, or from other people's ideas ?

oca wrote:or go into the corner if black plays at 'b'

Yes, or a spaced pincer, or tenuki.

EdLee wrote:

oca wrote: - I play this variation instead of 'a' when I try to get sente

Hi oca, this is interesting. On an empty board, you already have sente. Even when approaches, you still have sente and can tenuki.
( It is one nice feature of the star point opening: speed. )

Hi EdLee,

Sure, I just read TheWorkshopLectures Volume One, which start with a chapter on "When to Tenuki in the Opening". BTW I really enjoyed this book. I'm now with volume two, but I should stop eating books, as with too many books read, I remembrer nothing

EdLee wrote:Between the 4th line (a) and the 3rd line ,
I'm not really thinking in terms of sente/gote. How did you get this idea ? From your own actual battle experience, or from other people's ideas ?

from personal 'my corner got killed' experience,

If I play like that :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

and tenuki at I'm always annoyed by a move like 'a', that's why when I play on the forth line, I always 'complete' the joseki, 'in gote' like this one, wich is my

Joseki #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . 5 . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

and sometimes I even play at 'b' cause I don't like the invasion at 'a'...

In Joseki 2, you don't necessarily need to play right away, and depending on the surrounding situation, you may not need to play it at all. If white approaches again from the other side, black can always live by taking the corner with the descent, and it may or may not be a reasonable invasion at an given time. At best, I'd call Joseki 2 deferred gote vs sente. In addition, the choice between the two depends a lot on what's going on along the left side of the board. If white has a strong position in the upper left, may still leave an invasion, and it would have been better to play the knight's move response instead to avoid getting pushed around.

Thanks skydyr

A quick search on "http://ps.waltheri.net/" show that white tends to tenuki in situation like this one :

Joseki #3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . Y . .
$$ | . . a . 2 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

I like to play this one when I play handicap games, when there is allready a stone at
later, white allways play a move at 'a'

My favorite answer is this one :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 X 7 O . . . X . .
$$ | . 8 1 5 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 4 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

At least I know what I get...

but I also like that one :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . W . . . X . .
$$ | . . 1 2 X W . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

And I suppose at 'a' is also possible if I want to attack the two marked stones.

Your favourite answer to the 3-3 is the softest, wimpy one. Try to make the descent to a your favourite.

A quick pause in my joseki study to post that game from the swiss chamionship on kgs,
which is played without handicap... so that's me ~12k against a 1k or so... enjoy the desintegration

The end of the game (and maybe not just the end after all...) is just me trying every thing for the fun (that was ok for my opponenent, if not, I will have resigned earlier...

I'm aco (oca was allready taken on kgs) and despite that's a bit strange, I'm white...

A few comments on that game :

FUSEKI/JOSEKI

till I recognize that opening, this is a kobayashi.
Unfortunatly, in my head, kobayashi means :

"don't approach the 3-4 stone as I will get pincered and that will just help black build the bottom."

while this is not completly wrong, I think "don't do A ONE SPACE approach ..." would be more precise.
Missing that precision, I played far aways of the 3-4 stones...

After the game, I went to http://ps.waltheri.net/ and checked what was the most played move in this situation.

I saw this (or 'a') :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

That's really interesting for me as I saw that joseki in a book :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . 2 . 1 . . 3 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

And I was thinking "oh cool, at least one that is super easy to remind..." but in the game,
I really failed to see that this joseki may be a good choice for that situation...


LIFE AND DEAPTH

situation at move 33 :
white to play :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X . . |
$$ . . X O . . . |
$$ . . X , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . b . |
$$ . . . . a . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

In the game I played 'a', but I think 'b' was the correct move here...

Shape

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . . X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

move 44 to 70, I was trying to live, and so tryied to make a lot of 'strong' shape, like the two above , but I still failed...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . a
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------------[/go]

Also popular or more popular in many situations. In kobayashi it might be followed by a-b-c (at which point white can leave the group).

That's funny, I saw your message, and a few hours later, I went back to my translation of "Shape UP!" to gobook format and started to convert that page :
I'm happy as there are a few things starting to converge in my study

oca wrote: LIFE AND DEAPTH

situation at move 33 :
white to play :

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X . . |
$$ . . X O . c . |
$$ . . X , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . b . |
$$ . . . . a . . |
$$ --------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X . . |
$$ . . X O . c . |
$$ . . X , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . b . |
$$ . . . . a . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

In the game I played 'a', but I think 'b' was the correct move here...

Or 'c' (which lives unconditionally, but black can take a stone in sente, whereas 'b' fights a ko for a bigger group).

Nice game, a few thoughts:



I'd say that if you played a little lighter, the game may have been counted (or won ).

Uberdude wrote:

oca wrote: LIFE AND DEAPTH

situation at move 33 :
white to play :

$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X . . |
$$ . . X O . c . |
$$ . . X , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . b . |
$$ . . . . a . . |
$$ --------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X . . |
$$ . . X O . c . |
$$ . . X , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . X O . b . |
$$ . . . . a . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

In the game I played 'a', but I think 'b' was the correct move here...

Or 'c' (which lives unconditionally, but black can take a stone in sente, whereas 'b' fights a ko for a bigger group).

Thanks Uberdude, Actualy I missed that 'b' was not unconditionally alive...

Elom wrote:Nice game, a few thoughts:



I'd say that if you played a little lighter, the game may have been counted (or won ).

Hi Elom,

Thank you very much for your comments !

I like at E3

I agree, , are not good at all

was to build a table shape to make eyes, but I agree here too, I should first try to run out, then make eyes ultimately.

still trying to build shape that make eyes... :w56 is a second table shape... and is a try at a mouth shape , I'm still trying to live, but black get too much, and despite all these move, I'm still not fully alive...

At I understood that was all over for me...