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#244 Bill vs Ed

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11002

Page 19 of 22

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:27 am
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm115
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O X . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Digesting lunch, again. :)

( Local time Mon Dec 22, 2014. 3:27 pm. )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:08 am
by Uberdude
Hope you don't get indigestion from eating all those black stones on the left! ;-)

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:37 am
by Aidoneus
Uberdude wrote:Hope you don't get indigestion from eating all those black stones on the left! ;-)
I think that I turned an appetizer in to a main course!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm116
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O X 1 X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
It looked to me as though White had M17 and H16 as miai, and that either atari still loses all the stones on the left. As Uberdude quipped, I seem to have just added more stones to White's meal. I briefly considered just playing H11 but as far as I can count, White will be ahead with territory plus captured stones and it's game over. It probably is game over still, but let me see if I can save some territory on top right. Yet again, I tenukied to play J10 and should have got another move in at the top first! I didn't look at how my move ended in gote. My self diagnosis may be wrong, but it seems to me that this sente/gote business is something critical for me to study.

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:51 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm117
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . . O X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 1 X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Indigestion is indeed a problem, with the amount of real foods here... :|
( Local time Tue Dec 23, 2014. 09:51 am. )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:57 pm
by Aidoneus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm118
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X . 1 O X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:24 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm119
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X 1 X O X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Tue Dec 23, 2014. 12:24 pm. )

Re:

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:50 pm
by Aidoneus
EdLee wrote:Hi Aidoneus, continue to atari, please.
Eh?

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:32 pm
by Aidoneus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm120
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O X O X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:00 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm121
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O X O X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Tue Dec 23, 2014. 2:00 pm. )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:15 pm
by Aidoneus
I put a period for the captured stone, right?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm122
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O X . X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:16 pm
by EdLee
( For beginners. )

The :black: 120 extend is a common beginner mistake,
because it makes :white: 121 sente.

Instead, if :b1: captures directly:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: connects at :wc:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . a 2 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O X W X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Then, W has two local choices:
If :w4: connects at (a), then B has sente.
If :w4: tenuki, then later, B has a chance to play :black: (a) himself.

Either result is better for :black: than the game result,
which is :white: 121 pushes through in sente.

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:18 pm
by EdLee
Aidoneus wrote:I put a period for the captured stone, right?
Aidoneus, I like this notation: :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm122 :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O X . X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:00 am
by Uberdude
This looks like a good position for counting practice.

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:12 am
by EdLee
I've been doing rough counts since around :w65: (even though my counting is bad ); before that, it wasn't very meaningful.
Around :b94: , counting became more interesting. :)


( Local time Tue Dec 23, 2014. 7:12 pm. )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:31 am
by Bill Spight
No need to hide this. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black takes sente
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . 4 2 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . X O X W X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . X . O O O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O O X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . X O X X X . . X . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O X , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
:b3: fills @ :wc:
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