Prokovich game

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jts
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by jts »

someone said upthread that weak players should comment too, so my instinct...
White has six liberties and the upper center is empty. If B were to play around there, that would be worrisome. Besides, if W keeps trying to move out in the normal direction his groups would flee to the center (which far stronger players than I have suggested :roll: ), he's inducing B to surround a large area. :w58: is empty and offers a (somewhat awkward) direction for W to flee to in an emergency.

"a" might be good too. It whispers to me, "Black, separate the two white groups", which would strengthen d11 without strengthening g10. But a doesn't make a play for part of the upper side. If it were me I would probably play j16.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . a 2 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


thanks you, dfan, for organizing this.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Chew Terr »

Magicwand wrote:chew: below variation also look passive to me.
i rather have white stone at 'a'


Thank you. I guess I should be less concerned about those two stones being cut off. I'm reading a book about sabaki but never seem to think of it...
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Chew Terr wrote:... I'm reading a book about sabaki but never seem to think of it...


This would have been sabaki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



White's two stones are too heavy for sabaki. He is committed to keeping them. Therefore, he won't play Magicwand's :b58: at H12 because he loses them like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X W 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X W 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 5 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead, he will play Terr's move that keeps him connected and that begins to make eye space:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Harleqin »

Joaz, what is so valuable about those two stones? They have been answered below; they are kikashi. Their use is to protect the keima.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . 9 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X W 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X W 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 3 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black has better things to do, e.g.:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . b . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by mitsun »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:....White's two stones are too heavy for sabaki. He is committed to keeping them....
I don't think W is committed to saving those stones at all -- he can treat them as forcing moves which B already answered. I like the immediate W jump which others have suggested, but I think I would push once first, exchanging 1-2 before jumping to 3. After that, moves at b and c are miai.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X c . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X 2 . b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Good comments!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm58 ACTUAL GAME: Move 58
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Magicwand
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Magicwand »

i think below is a one way street.
i was not suggesting immidiate knight move at all. i only suggested that knight move is better move than the slow move suggested by others.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm58 ACTUAL GAME: Move 58
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X c . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X 2 . 4 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by emeraldemon »

Can black hane instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59 Guess for 59
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O W 1 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Magicwand »

emeraldemon wrote:Can black hane instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59 Guess for 59
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O W 1 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i have a feeling that if white cut immidiately it will be bad for black.
there is no reason to make it complicated at this stage of game.
also black extending is a solid and probably correct move.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Magicwand wrote:black extending is a solid and probably correct move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59 ACTUAL GAME: Move 59
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X 1 . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How do people feel about this fight? Last time I asked, most people said they would rather be White.
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Magicwand
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Magicwand »

dfan wrote:How do people feel about this fight? Last time I asked, most people said they would rather be White.

black is better for sure.
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The greater the unknown"
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I also think black is in better shape.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by mitsun »

dfan wrote: How do people feel about this fight? Last time I asked, most people said they would rather be White.
I still prefer W. B will profit from this local fight, but I think W has more than enough cash in the bank to compensate.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

dfan wrote:...
How do people feel about this fight? Last time I asked, most people said they would rather be White.


I count white at about 45 points, black about 30. With komi that puts white up at least 20 points.

After that, white has few prospects for more territory. He has 10 more points with R14. And 5 more with B6. That is around 60 points. Plus komi.

Black has R13 himself He has something around H16. He has B6 and M17 and B13. Each of those is worth 5 to 10 points. And then there is J6 which is about 15. At a minimum that is 60 points.

I now call it even.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Re: Prokovich game

Post by dfan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 ACTUAL GAME: Move 60
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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