Joaz Banbeck wrote:My prediction for next comment: Something bombastic.
Next comment is obvious: 'I think I'm ahead, I can win before counting!' - if its V's turn. 'He will resign soon for sure!' - if its MM's move.
This should be a sticky for my prediction for each move in their games.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:58 am
by k1ndofblue
For Observers
Quote "I have to say I find the constant predictions of resignation as well as other posturing unseemly. For all we know, the winning/losing move has not yet been played. These predictions make the players look stupid ( because they risk making these comments in a losing game ) and arrogant.
Instead of posturing the players should be making comments reflecting the thoughts that are going into making the move. That's what these games ( at least as I understand them ) are for."
I actually think that this is what makes the games between V and MW so fun to watch. Granted they are not the best to watch if you are trying to learn something because they do not do a good job of doing any kind of explaining why they choose the moves they do. But I do find the battle of obviously 2 huge egos interesting.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:41 am
by Violence
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . O O X X X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . O O X X X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Sorry Calm, but I was under the impression that we were just supposed to post our thoughts here.
My last move, I thought was easy to understand. I just want to capture that one stone in sente.
Everything I've been talking about has honestly been going through my head.
If you'd like me to shut up about it, that's fine. But have you never expected a resignation from your opponent?
Daniel: This is a good question. I was under the impression that it was hard to kill black, because most of his threats are much larger than mine, like the big group atari, poking at the bamboo joints, it didn't seem to me like an easy ko to win, so I played in the center to negate his influence. When you play a ko that comes at no risk to yourself, there is no reason to take risks in fighting it, right?
This is the biggest move on the board, so I played it.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:25 am
by Oroth
calm wrote: I have to say I find the constant predictions of resignation as well as other posturing unseemly. For all we know, the winning/losing move has not yet been played. These predictions make the players look stupid ( because they risk making these comments in a losing game ) and arrogant.
Instead of posturing the players should be making comments reflecting the thoughts that are going into making the move. That's what these games ( at least as I understand them ) are for.
I don't see how arrogance/humility comes into it. If you judge you have an irreducable lead it is reasonable to expect your opponent to resign. You don't count the game and then deduct 10 points from your side for humility's sake. Sure you might be wrong in your assessment, but thats what makes Malkovich games interesting - insight into the player's thought processes, whether they are right or wrong and the fascinating differences between two player's evaluation of a situation.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:46 am
by zinger
I thought the monkey jump to O19 (sente) was bigger than R11.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:50 am
by PYves
zinger wrote:
I thought the monkey jump to O19 (sente) was bigger than R11.
it's hard to say R11 isn't sente though
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:00 am
by calm
zinger wrote:I thought the monkey jump to O19 (sente) was bigger than R11.
You may be right. Though I believe most monkey jumps are gote.
How strong is Vilence's endgame? I get the feeling that most of his games are over before then.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:06 am
by Bantari
Oroth wrote:
calm wrote: I have to say I find the constant predictions of resignation as well as other posturing unseemly. For all we know, the winning/losing move has not yet been played. These predictions make the players look stupid ( because they risk making these comments in a losing game ) and arrogant.
Instead of posturing the players should be making comments reflecting the thoughts that are going into making the move. That's what these games ( at least as I understand them ) are for.
I don't see how arrogance/humility comes into it. If you judge you have an irreducable lead it is reasonable to expect your opponent to resign. You don't count the game and then deduct 10 points from your side for humility's sake. Sure you might be wrong in your assessment, but thats what makes Malkovich games interesting - insight into the player's thought processes, whether they are right or wrong and the fascinating differences between two player's evaluation of a situation.
True, it has great entertaining value, for a while... However, if the posturing is constant and highly repetitive, it just becomes tedious and boring.
I got to the point where I hardly even look at MMs comments, since all he seems to be thinking about is 'What a kyuish move' or 'He will resign soon', or something like that, even if the position or the move does not really warrant such assessment. Other than that, he's main justification for moves seems to be 'it feels is good' or 'it feels is bad'. V is not much better.
Don't get me wrong - it is natural to wish for win and resignation. However, I cannot possibly imagine that at dan level this is THE ONLY THING that they think about. Even as a low kyu player I had more things going through my head, sequences I evaluated, plans I rejected, and so on... In other words, we are only getting the posturing without all the other good stuff, and the posturing is highly repetitive. Did I say it was highly repetitive? Yes, I did say it was highly repetitive. Because its true - the posturing is highly repetitive!
I think that it is a very entertaining game, but might as well be a regular server game for all I care. We seem to be getting very little insight into what the players are thinking other than the highly repetitive posturing.
I think I have made my point.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:42 pm
by zinger
PYves wrote:it's hard to say R11 isn't sente though
hmm, I don't see how white ends in sente after R11. If black blocks at R10 and white switches elsewhere, it may be sente but I think white loses something by the exchange. On the other hand if white continues, black can easily switch elsewhere first - such as Q19.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:45 pm
by Harleqin
calm wrote:I believe most monkey jumps are gote.
No. If you end in gote after having played a monkey jump, you have made a mistake.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:54 pm
by fwiffo
$$B $$ . . O . . . X . $$ X X O O O O X X $$ . X 2 . . O O X $$ . . 3 . 1 . O X $$ ---------------
[go]$$B $$ . . O . . . X . $$ X X O O O O X X $$ . X 2 . . O O X $$ . . 3 . 1 . O X $$ ---------------[/go]
Always?
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:00 pm
by hyperpape
Harleqin wrote:
calm wrote:I believe most monkey jumps are gote.
No. If you end in gote after having played a monkey jump, you have made a mistake.
If you end in gote after playing a monkey jump, you just played the biggest move on the board.
For those who want a philosophy of language/linguistics lesson, that's akin to a backtracking counterfactual, though I'm not sure if it has its own name.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:14 pm
by mitsun
zinger wrote:I thought the monkey jump to O19 (sente) was bigger than R11.
It's all in the timing ... W needs to wait long enough that the monkey jump really is sente (because of the large follow-up if not answered), but not so long that the B block becomes the largest move (counting double for reverse sente). That looks like a pretty big window in this position, so W should have plenty of opportunities.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:06 pm
by Harleqin
fwiffo wrote:
$$B $$ . . O . . . X . $$ X X O O O O X X $$ . X 2 . . O O X $$ . . 3 . 1 . O X $$ ---------------
[go]$$B $$ . . O . . . X . $$ X X O O O O X X $$ . X 2 . . O O X $$ . . 3 . 1 . O X $$ ---------------[/go]
Always?
In this case, you would have to ask yourself whether a 3-point sente would not have been better than a 5-point gote.
Anyway, you can construct examples where something that you can technically label a monkey jump actually ends in gote with optimal play, but in the overwhelming majority of cases, a correct monkey jump should be played in such a way that one keeps sente. It is definitely wrong to assume that "most monkey jumps end in gote".
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:53 am
by Magicwand
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . O O X X X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X 5 . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X 2 1 3 X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . 4 X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . O O X X X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X 5 . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X 2 1 3 X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . 4 X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a: is huge. b,c,d are some other point of intrest..
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . c . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . O O X X X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X a . . . . X O . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . X . . d . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X 5 . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O b . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X 2 1 3 X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . 4 X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . c . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . O O X X X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X a . . . . X O . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . X . . d . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X 5 . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O b . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X 2 1 3 X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . 4 X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
