Life In 19x19

In a way, people already have voted on it. In online discussions, almost everybody calls it Kaya, not Kaya.gs. That might prompt Gabriel and Patricio to make it official, but it's up to them. Even if it remains Kaya.gs officially, everybody will know what you're referring to when you say Kaya outside the topic of goban materials, so perhaps it's not an urgent matter.

daal wrote: BTW, *all* of the people who commented on your poll were in favor of using the name kaya instead of kaya.gs.

The feedback service we use is a system based on votes : you can only give votes, not take them away. So anyone there would only be supporting the idea. As i said, 4/195 people that voted on the site, and they happened i think around the time i redirected users to that.

daal wrote: I never read that there was a poll, and I imagine that if you had posted one here, where there is a broader community instead of buried in the feedback section of your site, you might have gotten a good deal more response.

Its not buried, it had the same procedure as any other feature there, and even more as i referenced it in places where this topic was mentioned. Maybe you are considering that i should have started a campaign inciting people to vote, but that would be biased in one way or another.

For me the topic is quite settled because no new arguments came into the mix. I said before, our #1 priority are users, and i haven't heard any argument in this topic that had them in mind.
As i mentioned countless time in this issue, dropping the gs from the name means people will not find the site. Making it .com means we have to add things to the name, like kgs did.

Do we believe being named Kaya.gs makes the site easier to find for users? Yes.
Has the name confusion been happening? To my knowledge only one person ever i saw referenced Kaya as KGS, and i publicly called him on it.(it was on a blog)
Do we believe it affects KGS negatively in any way that some users could call Kaya.gs KGS? No.

I cant imagine what is the crisis scenario that you feel is so important to avoid. Some users googling kgs and seeing Kaya.gs in the list of sites?

1- Try googling Kgs. Kaya is not at least in the first 10 pages.
2- Try googling kaya. Right now even logged in, kaya.gs is barely creeped in the bottom of the first page. Without session, which means without googles profiled search, we are not at least in the first 5 pages.
3- Try googling kaya.gs . Undoubted first hit.

Just take a step back and look at this from our position.
What would any other server do if 2% of the users proposed it changed its name?

I lurk on L19 every now and again, and this thread finally spurred me to make an account and point out a few things. I don't intend to give any new information here, merely put some things together that may point out the obvious for many, and put together a larger puzzle for some. As he is the main factor here, I am afraid that sir Benmergui may be the blunt of much of this post. As I don't know him, I have little reason for animosity against him, but perhaps you should also view this as a learning experience on professionalism as you venture into the business world. It may also be worth stating that I do speak with illluck via Internet chatting on a semi-regular basis.

This post will not be regarding in any way the functionality or stability, or even credibility of the Kaya server project. It will only be regarding this recent development that has caused a bit of commotion.

illluck posted a concern he had with Kaya in a somewhat comical manner. He perhaps posted it to the wrong place, being publicly instead of privately, but it was addressing an issue of which all information was public, so it seems there is little cause to keep it off of the main development thread. Nonetheless, it was posted. This was met with a prompt and professional reply by Benmergui, as well as a fix to the alleged concerns. This was a correct course of action.

However, that was not where the problem was. Benmergui proceeded to try to mock illluck for pointing out the problem in a rather public chat-room, and sent him a rather rude and angry message to belittle him, with an ounce of useful advice. This is not anywhere near professionalism. The PM especially illustrates a problem with an inflated ego, and was very childish. Obviously Benmergui did this because he thought it would be private, which only escalates illluck's reasons to publicly post it. You can't act professional in public forums and attack people giving suggestions in private. That will not do.

The posts that followed were largely in illluck's favour, if this is truly to be viewed as an argument between Benmergui and him, which shouldn't be the case to begin with. What happened next is perhaps the most disappointing. Benmergui makes a post that starts off well, addressing the issues and restoring confidence in his "founders" or donors, whatever you prefer to refer to them as. Indeed, it was pointed out that illluck's concern was not an issue in the first place! I am in awe and cannot fathom why it was an unpleasant surprise that illluck posted, then, as obviously this information was never intended to be kept private. Watch your word choice, Benmergui, if that is not truly what you meant from your first reply.

Then it degenerates:

I am sorry that you perceive something so negative about that private message i sent to Illuck. It might be lost in translation ,but even re-reading it after a good night sleep, the point still stands. He made an aggressive post, that showed me he had intentions of impersonating other users, which is why i promptly (in the next 2 hours) i put up the passwords, which were already implemented well from before, but i needed to be able to send them to as most founders that i could.

Regarding the chat in the server, it is taken quite out of context, as several founders know i even jokingly call dp such when something has to be done on the design/board functionality.

I find this quite laughable. It is completely undeniable that Benmergui's posts were fuelled by a temporary rage and the fear that a small oversight may have lost him some credibility. The "intentions of impersonating other users" was obviously not ill-founded, as it was to test to see if his original concern was valid. Had he intended to use this method, why on earth would he have posted his concern in the first place? Highly illogical. This also contradicts what Benmergui posted above, which clearly stated that there could be no possible harm in such actions, and it was a well-known fact among the donors. I also find it highly improbable that the chat quotation was out of context, since in any context one should not be attacking someone who merely raises a red flag of concern. Never publicly attack anyone related to your own business in any way. It never helps with image and will not build relationships with your client base. This is quite simple business sense. This is not even an issue with wording, it is an issue with attitude towards potential business.

Maybe i perceive a tone of agressiveness from this posts that other users don't, but they are certainly meant for that.
I did learn a lesson from this, and that holding this project raises my profile and some people can be tempted into damaging my image or worse, the projects image. I promess i will make an effort to keep such opportunities to the minimum.

And this brings me to my main problem. This is a classic attempt to shift blame and public opinion. What Benmergui has done here is not amicable by any standard. By now it must be apparent that a mistake, and possibly a few, have been made. Instead of addressing that a mistake was made, and apologizing or at least giving an explanation for actions taken, this serves as a method of attention diversion. Benmergui has now completely villainized illluck, as well as giving himself a little ego boost. This is, paired with the two preceding paragraphs, a final attempt to win back any lost souls who saw eye to eye with illluck, for reasons legitimate or misguided. This is childish and unprofessional to the highest degree. It is very close to bully tactics, and should be a warning sign to all reading it. It is certainly not a good insight into the ego and mentality of the author. It is precisely this that spurred me to create this monolith of text.

Other than some further contradictions in Benmergui's following post, I feel this is where most of this issue ends. I would like to clearly state that this is not an argument of any kind, nor is it to directly incur some form of inflammation. This is analysis, observation, and fact. I do not feel that the majority of this post can be disputed in any way, as it is made up of simple analysis on the provided information. Feel free to read or ignore at your leisure, but these would be some of my concerns, and includes several lessons that perhaps Benmergui, illluck and others must learn if they want to build a successful, healthy environment in their endeavours.

Best of fortune to all of you as you create this new server.

---Boredom.

My 2 cents regarding the last couple of days' discussion about passwords:

First of all, I don't consider the situation to have been much of a security issue.
But,
It's a matter of professionalism and credibility, it just doesn't seem very trustworthy to have a non-changable password that equals the username. Most or all of the funders knew there was close to nothing for non-funders to gain by hijacking a funder account, but non-funders didn't!
And, it's a matter of respect for the funders: If they should have the privilege of having sole access to the alpha, it should not have been so easy for non-funders to get access.
At least the information about passwords should not have been made public on the blog; for instance a note to the funders to email kaya to receive the information would have been better.
Posting what was already publicly available on the kaya blog here was mostly a non-issue, a bit unneccesary perhaps but really nothing to get upset about.

/Mats

Would it be a good idea to create a new forum for kaya discussions, or if there is reason to believe that there will not be much discussions a "other servers" forum.
Also, this thread discuss loads of different things so maybe it should be split up into 3-4 threads?

/Mats

mohsart wrote:Would it be a good idea to create a new forum for kaya discussions, or if there is reason to believe that there will not be much discussions a "other servers" forum.
Also, this thread discuss loads of different things so maybe it should be split up into 3-4 threads?

/Mats

Joaz offered me to open up a new thread. I told him i wanted to wait because i didn't want to put much energy here, but given the last week maybe its time to have a space where each issue can be somewhat discussed separately. I agree that this thread has grown monstruosly.

[admin] To be precise, I offered to create a new sub-forum, as has been done for KGS, IGS, etc -JB [/admin]

[admin]
There are some serious questions about L19 policies raised in this thread ( such as how L19 should react to posting of other sites' alleged security holes). I'd rather not discuss them in this thread, simply because they are off topic.

I've got lots of real-world work to do today. This evening or tomorrow I will start a thread or two in the 'bugs and suggestions' forum so the issues can be handled calmly and in the appropriate location. I ask for everyone's patience until then.

As for the topic of the thread, there is nothing in the TOS that prevents a member from criticizing another web site - it is only criticizing other members that is explicitly against the rules.
( A prudent member would, of course, try to state such criticisms if the most dispassionate language possible to facilitate a calm, reasoned, and productive discussion. )
-JB

[/admin]

Kaya.gs wrote:

mohsart wrote:Would it be a good idea to create a new forum for kaya discussions, or if there is reason to believe that there will not be much discussions a "other servers" forum.
Also, this thread discuss loads of different things so maybe it should be split up into 3-4 threads?

/Mats

Joaz offered me to open up a new thread. I told him i wanted to wait because i didn't want to put much energy here, but given the last week maybe its time to have a space where each issue can be somewhat discussed separately. I agree that this thread has grown monstruosly.

[admin] To be precise, I offered to create a new sub-forum, as has been done for KGS, IGS, etc -JB [/admin]

Yes , thats what i understood. If Kaya had its own subforum, each topic could be in a separate thread inside the subforum.

No rush, handle your daily life and do it whenever you can.

Regards,

Kaya.gs wrote:

Kaya.gs wrote:

mohsart wrote:Would it be a good idea to create a new forum for kaya discussions, or if there is reason to believe that there will not be much discussions a "other servers" forum.
Also, this thread discuss loads of different things so maybe it should be split up into 3-4 threads?

/Mats

Joaz offered me to open up a new thread. I told him i wanted to wait because i didn't want to put much energy here, but given the last week maybe its time to have a space where each issue can be somewhat discussed separately. I agree that this thread has grown monstruosly.

[admin] To be precise, I offered to create a new sub-forum, as has been done for KGS, IGS, etc -JB [/admin]

Yes , thats what i understood. If Kaya had its own subforum, each topic could be in a separate thread inside the subforum.

No rush, handle your daily life and do it whenever you can.

Regards,

Sounds like you wanted a subforum, so I set one up.

Good job Kirby, with a new baby and all.
Personally I'll probably be off of here pretty soon and god knows for how long, once my baby arrives (scheduled for today).
Sorry for being off topic, but this having a baby really is something.

/Mats

mohsart wrote:Good job Kirby, with a new baby and all.
Personally I'll probably be off of here pretty soon and god knows for how long, once my baby arrives (scheduled for today).
Sorry for being off topic, but this having a baby really is something.

/Mats

Congratulations, mohsart. May the labor be short and trouble free

Regarding the baby, I highly recommend those carrier things you can use to strap the baby to your stomach. Our kid always sleeps in it, even if he was crying seconds earlier. In fact, I am using it right now. In coordination with my iPad, I can read books, play go, use the forum, and do go problems all without having to get up, all the while having me kid right here with me.

Of course, the extra time off work helps

so uhh on topic....move this thread?

stalkor wrote:so uhh on topic....move this thread?

Moved, per request.