Teamovitch #1

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:07 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm26 Move 26 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

WIC (+observers):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm26 Move 26 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really want to kill the aji of marked stone as completely as possible, and leave few cuts. We want to carry on chasing that group, and there are other interesting look moves we can play. Black still has to bend and jump, so we should get the chance to return to the top left corner hopefully. Quick question, does this work for us?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm26 Move 26 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 4 O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If not, what do we do about it?

Post by **Jordus** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:47 pm

BIC:

Just a few points that caught my eye in the few shoet minutes I had to look here.... A more detailed look to come later...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 Move 27 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . b O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . d . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:31 pm

Black move suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 Move 27 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . a O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the turn is the right way to go. Leaning on the stronger right side with a seems natural, but it doesn't seem to require a response at all. There's also the kosumi, but it's one of those in-between moves that doesn't feel like it's doing anything particularly well. The turn has a nice feel to it.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:42 pm

All I want for Christmas is two more suggestions.

EDIT: unhidden...What I really want for Christmas are these three suggestions:

So far I have 1 of 3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . b O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O c . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As I mentioned before, our lower right group only has a purpose if it can threaten white's group. To do this, we either attack directly with 'a' or 'c', or strengthen our group with 'b' in sente and then come back and attack.[/hide]

Post by **Jordus** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:53 pm

Black Suggestion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 Move 27 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fwiffo took the bend so I decided on the extension.... I like to play aggressive moves and attach stones to begin fights.... My second choice would have been (a), but I decided it was too passive...

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:29 am

Black internal chat:

Jedo · Post by **Jedo** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:47 pm

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:44 pm

@Jedo:

Jedo · Post by **Jedo** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:23 pm

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:22 pm

Santa gave me all three presents that I wanted!! ( See post 5 moves back, now unhidden )

I have holiday social obligations coming up, so it make take me several days before I post my choice.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:44 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O B . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For teammates and observers:

Let's look at the direction of play for several of the relevant groups.

Our lone stone on R8 has been assumed to be a stone that can run out, first playing something like 'a' or 'b', then 'c' or 'd', and thereby not only invading white's territory, but threatening two white groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . b O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . # . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With white's latest ( marked with a circle ) that may not be true any more. If white ever gets a play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . # . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...then we cannot get out.

So the direction of play for this stone is changing. It is now aimed more at the right side, either to live low and small against the right side, or to die while threatening to connect low to the north and low to the south:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . # . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . 4 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O 1 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . 3 . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next, let's look at the direction of play for the big white group: ( and note that I refer to it as one group, for it can connect in gote, and if we try to split it, our splitting stones probably die. )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . a . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . @ @ . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . c . @ . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . @ . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X @ . @ . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The only direction available for this group to develop is westward with 'a' or 'b', and 'c'.

Our lower right group has two possible directions:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . b O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a # . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O # . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . # O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . # . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . # . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It can attack the eyeless white group in the lower middle with 'a', or it can block the expansion of the white group on the right side with 'b'. Either is a good thing for black to do.

White's group in the lower middle has three possibilities: it can run northward with 'a', it can run eastward with 'b', or it can go for eyes to the southeast with 'c':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b . @ X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . @ . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . @ . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or it can do several combinations and hybrids of those three. It is a rather flexible group at this point.

The last relevant group is black's semi-lone stone on the lower side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . d . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . e . # . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ideally, it would like to go with 'a', especially if we can play 'b' or 'c' to accompany it. A lesser possibility is 'd', or even 'e' if it must run for its life.

=============================================================

So, given that set of directions, let's look at the flow for the move that the soldiers prefer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 4 . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O 0 . | $$ | . . X , . . . 3 . , . . . X . , 9 . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . 7 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The general flow ( with possible tenukis ) would be that black attacks with 1 ( an acceptable direction for that group ), white runs with 2 ( also an acceptable direction for it ), black defends with 3 ( a second best direction for black ), then white threatens to enclose with 4 ( a favored direction for white ), black runs with 5 ( an acceptable direction ), then the sequence in the lower right is eventually played which gets the possibility of eyespace for black's lower right group. But now that white has played 10 at S5, the preferred direction of play for R8 is stymied.

From black's point of view, there are two 'family feuds'. First, by playing M7, black encourages white to come across the top of black's possible territory, making the K3 stone go in its second-best direction. Second, by letting the fight in the lower right corner slide too far to the right, black encourages white to cramp - and probably kill - the R8 stone.
In summary: several groups get acceptable directions, one white group gets its favored direction, and two black groups get inferior directions. This seems like a bad result for black.

======================================================================

Let's take a detour here for a moment...

If we get rid of the excess stones, and sorta square things up, the approximate shape of the board is like this: ( yes, I've take serious liberties with proportion, but topology and direction are undisturbed )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, do we want to run like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 3 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 3 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 3 O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...or like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 4 4 4 O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 3 3 3 X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 2 2 2 O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . 1 1 1 1 X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that we prefer the former, running across the top of their territory rather than letting them run across the top of ours.

[/detour]

====================================================================================

So I don't want to start by voluntarily running westward. It is the wrong direction. I'd like to get all the groups running northward.

My first inclination is to start in the northern direction immediately. But that is not aggressive enough to be sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . a X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can take the huge tenuki with 4, and then running with 6 is sente because it threatens 'a'. And 'b' is still available. So white gets 4 for free, and his lower side group lives.

My preferred solution to the direction issue is to make a move that is sente and prevents white from starting the mass westward movement:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O # . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fortunately Jedo suggested it.

If white tries to push westward with his lower side group, we can ignore it because we have miai of 'a' and 'b' to keep our lone stone alive. Then we can tenuki to the big point in the upper left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . b . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white tries to push westward with his right side group, then we will turn, but it will be much more dangerous:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , c . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 6 . 4 . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . a . X . O 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We can play 7 if we feel combatitive, or tenuki to 'c' if we feel greedy. Either way, white has a weak group that is too big to loose.

So neither white group can profitably start the push westward. There are other posibilities for white's reply:

This looks good for us:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As does this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . 3 . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X 2 O 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The most aggressive attempt at refutation is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 8 . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . a 4 7 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 3 . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...where black has threats of 'a' and 'b'.

============================================================================

In summary, this move grabs a lttle eye space, prevents white's weak group from sliding into that space and making its own eye, and it at least temporarily prevents the general flow of the game from going toward the west.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:24 am

Observers:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 4 . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O 0 . | $$ | . . X , . . . 3 . , . . . X . , 9 . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O . 7 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd like to note that white's 6 and 8 are not connected safely yet. I leave the cut as an exercise to the reader.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:30 am

To observers: I added a lot of analysis that suggests future moves.
The same question again: are Topazg and I offering about the same amount of advice?

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:52 pm

WIC:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . c . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I see a two ideas here.
a: keeps black separated, but we'll probably come under severe attack.
b: get out, and let black connect in gote if they wish

I haven't looked into these much. Any other ideas?

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:25 am

WIC:

Life In 19x19

Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1