ketchup wrote: I have more issues with people playing longer than they should, and underestimating someone. In terms of starcraft, a cheese is the exact opposite. It's not about underestimation at all. In fact, in a lot of cases it's used when the opponent is not comfortable with a long drawn out game against certain races/people. I really do not get the negativity.
I'm not so sure about this. I've now been cannon rushed 3 times. The first time I was completely confused and didn't respond at all and lost. The second and third times I scouted it early (I'm always scouting around my own base just in case), pulled 4 probes and easily stopped it. What really annoyed me was that both cannon rushes were seriously all-in (the player just sent more probes or built more pylons and cannons and let them get destroyed) yet the player did not resign. In both cases they walled off with lots of cannons and teched to void-rays. I'm pretty sure the best response when you can't immediately win but have a huge advantage is to expand. So we end up with a 15 minute game that I've won after 5 minutes. Because I want to absolutely make sure I win, it doesn't end until their 40 food void ray army dies to my 120 food blink stalkers and I've destroyed half their base. I feel pretty outraged that they thought they could win. I can only imagine them thinking:
"well the cannon rush failed and I lost about 700 minerals on it, maybe if I spend another 450/600 to make sure I don't lose right now I can tech to void ray/DT and my opponent is probably too stupid to have built detection/anit-air/'an army that would take me out before I take him out anyway' by that time - he's probably just left his extra 1150 minerals sat in the bank while he's looking down at the keyboard trying to find the key to make more probes. I can win this!"
Grrr. I enjoyed stopping the cannons, but those extra 10 minutes I'd like to get back.
Wow, I played a game that was almost exactly like this a while ago, word for word. I took a different approach though after beating his cannon rush and instead of expanding, decided to tech to colossis+lance and wittle away his base. At least for me I found it to be a fast way to victory since by the time he had about 2 - 3 VRs I was already up in his base with a strong dozen of stalkers and some sentries/zeals with a colossi. I wish I had the replay to look over and see if expanding would have been better, but alas I got sc2gears only just recently .
And oh, I think when one is severely behind after an all-in, walling up with defense can be an appropriate response. A good example would have to be this game. It buys time to expand, but of course regardless you'll still have to hope for a huge mistake by your opponent to take the lead.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:40 am
by Hushfield
fwiffo wrote:Most sports have a history of creating rules to outlaw cheese. In ice hockey, a team used to be able to just shoot the puck down the length of the ice any time they gained possession, which made it easy to defend even against a better team, and created a slow, boring game. The NHL created the icing rule to force teams to carry the puck out of their end of the ice, improving the pace of the game.
You bring up an interesting point: what is your objective in changing the rules? Making the game more interesting for spectators? If so, then I would definitely say "leave the cheese in!" What's up with always building all your buildings inside your own base? Hide stuff! Deceive! Play mindgames. That is an interesting game of starcraft.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:01 am
by fwiffo
Hushfield wrote:You bring up an interesting point: what is your objective in changing the rules? Making the game more interesting for spectators? If so, then I would definitely say "leave the cheese in!" What's up with always building all your buildings inside your own base? Hide stuff! Deceive! Play mindgames. That is an interesting game of starcraft.
Ultimately, the goal is to make the sport more profitable by making it more interesting to fans. And I think e-Sports would like that, and maybe you're right that cheese is potentially more interesting sometimes for fans. Longer games (I'm looking at you TvT!) are not always more interesting, though some are (e.g. the epic match between Drewbie and Socke at MLG, or the match Day[9] reviewed on Monday).
However, Starcraft would become more profitable for Blizzard by making it more interesting for the players. Say you're a casual gamer and your Starcraft-owning buddy hands you one of the guest passes that came with the boxed copy of the game. You log on to battle.net and proceed to get cheesed in 5 placement matches. Are you going to buy the game?
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:37 am
by Peter Hansmeier
I finally started to play ladder games, and *all* of my games against protoss have involved cheese or void rays. The first game was an all-in probe rush (huh?). Others turtled up and then went straight for void rays. I am still fairly new, so the rays are still hard to stop--even when I know exactly what is coming. No one has tried to hassle me with reapers or zergling rushes, though. One guy tried early cloaked banshees, but his macro was even worse than mine, and I easily leveled his base with a giant horde of mutalisks. If void rays are good through gold, then it will be a while before I can stop them reliably...
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:35 am
by Hushfield
fwiffo wrote:However, Starcraft would become more profitable for Blizzard by making it more interesting for the players. Say you're a casual gamer and your Starcraft-owning buddy hands you one of the guest passes that came with the boxed copy of the game. You log on to battle.net and proceed to get cheesed in 5 placement matches. Are you going to buy the game?
Absolutely. I'll totally freak on it until I am the one pwning noobs. Then lose interest and move on. On a more serious note, I think you underestimate the resilience and fanaticism of many players out there. But - as Mr. Thom Yorke so elegantly pointed out - I might be wrong.
I think Blizzard has already shown their take on cheese through their actions: they subtly change timings so that some of the more potent cheese (ten year old liquified smelly brie) doesn't remain completely unstoppable, but the alterations are usually not that great that they break the entire strategy. They make it a little easier to deal with. I think that for the developers, some of the all-in type and weird strategies people come up with present them with great pride as well. It must be wonderful to see players get creative and use the pieces you designed in a way for which they were not originally intended. It's like LEGO. The game is only as good as the person playing it.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:46 am
by fwiffo
Apparently there are a few people who just worker rush every game just so they can earn high-level portraits as fast as possible. They surrender immediately against Terran (who could take off with their buildings and force the game to last longer), but still manage to get about a 50% win rate because the match-making system pairs them up with people who die to worker rushes.
Or they're sandbaggers.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:30 am
by Hushfield
Aah nevermind them. There are escapers on KGS. That doesn't defile go.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:39 am
by MountainGo
fwiffo wrote:Apparently there are a few people who just worker rush every game just so they can earn high-level portraits as fast as possible. They surrender immediately against Terran (who could take off with their buildings and force the game to last longer), but still manage to get about a 50% win rate because the match-making system pairs them up with people who die to worker rushes.
Or they're sandbaggers.
Funny you say that. I was just now SCV-rushed on Steppes of War by this guy, and I logged on here to post about it. I couldn't believe it when I saw his six SCVs coming into my base before I had even built so much as a Supply Depot. I typed "wtf" then attack moved all my SCVs into his. As he backed away, I returned to mine; and as he came to attack again, I attacked him again. Before long they were all dead. I guess that's what happens when my army size increases by 50% while you're busy walking across the map. It probably helped that I was playing Terran (SCVs have 5 more HP than other workers if you didn't know), which he couldn't have known since I was on Random. But seriously, how do these people ever win? He has over 900 points in Platinum! He has 254 wins, and guess what his portrait is? Yup, the one you get for 250 wins as Terran in ladder matches.
EDIT: I also just looked at his match history, and he's played at least 25 games today, winning about half, not including one loss on Desert Oasis (lol) just marked "Left" next to a skull, with no +/- point indication. Hmmm...
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:11 pm
by Solomon
GSL Spoilers
Sigh...as much as I don't like IdrA for his notorious BM, I was still kind of sad that he got knocked out of the GSL. I have to give props to his opponent LotzePrime though, especially on game 3 where he beats IdrA in his own game (macro-fest) thanks to a hidden expansion. I also liked his game 2 where he tricks IdrA into thinking he would go for a common robo build that Lotze played in the past by building a robo in his base, all while building a proxy Stargate and pumping out 3 void rays that totally threw IdrA off-guard. Seems a lot of game I've been watching and playing have been games of deception .
And oh, regarding the GSL, there is only 1 foreigner left: TLO!
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:19 pm
by fwiffo
Where can you watch the GSL streams?
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:30 pm
by Solomon
fwiffo wrote:Where can you watch the GSL streams?
You can watch it live here (SQ is free; HQ is $20 per season): http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/live/ If it lags, you can watch re-streams on TeamLiquid.net when it's up.
It starts pretty late though, 2am PST/5am EST (event calendar here).
Just watched the GSL today; I don't think I'd ever say "brilliant" and "cheese" in one breath until I saw Inca's game. Be sure to check game 2 out. I'm going to watch the VOD a few times and see if I can try it out myself; I dare say that this cheese variant will be harder to defeat than a proxy 2-gate in PvP matchups, though I don't think this will work for all maps, just Metalopolis and a few others.
What separates this "new" cannon rush from a typical cannon rush is the pylon contain. A typical cannon rush is fairly easy to stop even when a pylon has been built because you can just take 4 probes off mining to zap any warping cannons. The pylon contain however makes this impossible as the cannons will be built outside the ramp. This is a variation of the pylon contain typically done in PvZ, but the difference is that the cannons are not behind the pylons, but rather behind the opponent's mineral line outside the base, still within range of the pylons blocking the ramp (hence why this can't work for all maps). Once the cannons are finished, all the opponent needs to do is ensure the probe in the base is alive as he warps in a pylon close enough to the cannons outside the base such that the zealots cannot touch it but also within range of the mineral fields to kill probes. Once the pylon in the base is finished, cannons can now be warped in easily, again thanks to the cannons already built behind the base.
From what I can see, the best way to handle this strategy is to get a quick core and stalker. A decent opponent will micro his probe so that it can kite any zealots and not bump into any of your probes. Since time is spent building the pylon contain and then the cannons behind the base, there should be more than ample time to get a Stalker and ensure that you kill the probe so that all you need to worry about is taking out the pylons blocking the ramp.
However, this is a 50/50 gamble. In the game, Inca's opponent realized he was doing something fishy since there was nothing in Inca's base, but he couldn't determine whether he was proxy 2-gating or cannon rushing until the pylon contain, by which he was already warping in the 2nd gate assuming the proxy 2-gate (which was an appropriate assumption; after all, who cannon rushes in a major tournament?). You'll get more zealots, sure, but as you'll see in the game that doesn't mean you can kill the vital probe. And if he had gotten the quick core, then he would have lost to a proxy 2-gate.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:17 am
by Aphelion
Oooh, I have to watch that game, that idea isn't new though, it sounds similar to Nal_ra's cannon rush vs Savior on Peaks of Baekdu a few years ago.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:25 pm
by Dusk Eagle
I just bought Starcraft 2 today. Now, I'm waiting for Wine to finish compiling so I can install it and play it. I hate how long it takes for programs to compile . My computer actually falls below the minimum specs, but I'm hoping I can run it without having to buy more hardware for my computer. So yeah, this post is just to spend some time while I wait for Wine to finish so I can start the long installation process.
Re: Starcraft II
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:04 pm
by Solomon
Dusk Eagle wrote:I just bought Starcraft 2 today. Now, I'm waiting for Wine to finish compiling so I can install it and play it. I hate how long it takes for programs to compile . My computer actually falls below the minimum specs, but I'm hoping I can run it without having to buy more hardware for my computer. So yeah, this post is just to spend some time while I wait for Wine to finish so I can start the long installation process.
Hopefully things work out, despite falling below minimum specs.
Anyways, for those who missed the GSL yesterday but only want to watch the good VODs, I have to highly, highly recommend Tester (oGssKs)'s 3rd game against NEXFreeSaga, a PvP on Metalopolis.
He pretty much achieves the impossible and beats a proxy 2-gate with just 1 gate, a very very late Forge, lots of pure micro, and a bit of luck. The luck comes from NEXFreeSaga's clever tactic that ultimately proved to be his downfall where he builds a pylon behind Tester's mineral line outside the base, initially fooling Tester that he was going for a cannon rush. This forced him to take probes out to damage the pylon and send out Zealots to FreeSaga's base to do some damage to his exposed worker line as he kept watching for warping cannons.
While he does succeed with the worker harass, this also meant he had less Zealots for defense as FreeSaga's zealots came into Tester's base and only then did Tester realize it was actually a proxy 2-gate and that the pylon behind the minerals was a fake. And yet he still, incredibly, manages to hold his defense and buy time to build a Forge and a few cannons. Just goes to show how, with micro, you don't need to have more units than your opponent to win the game even if the unit compositions are the same. The game got a 98% for recommendation, where 268 out of 274 who voted in the poll would recommend this game.
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. My computer actually falls below the minimum specs, but I'm hoping I can run it without having to buy more hardware for my computer. So yeah, this post is just to spend some time while I wait for Wine to finish so I can start the long installation process.