Page 3 of 3

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:37 am
by skydyr
Uberdude wrote:Do not use OGS to measure your strength as a beginner as 30k there is very broad and includes many stronger players. Some (e.g. Bill) will say beginners shouldn't worry about rank but I can understand wanting to see a number changing to give feedback and encouragement of progress (I did and still do). Try KGS instead, though the beginner ranks there probably aren't as meaningful as they were a few years ago due to fewer players.


I heartily agree with this. Ranks on OGS are, I think, separated by much less than a stone elsewhere, since most people play correspondence games there. I would not be shocked if there were mid-level DDKs (say 15k) on KGS who were 30k on OGS.

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:42 am
by Abyssinica
skydyr wrote:
Uberdude wrote:Do not use OGS to measure your strength as a beginner as 30k there is very broad and includes many stronger players. Some (e.g. Bill) will say beginners shouldn't worry about rank but I can understand wanting to see a number changing to give feedback and encouragement of progress (I did and still do). Try KGS instead, though the beginner ranks there probably aren't as meaningful as they were a few years ago due to fewer players.


I heartily agree with this. Ranks on OGS are, I think, separated by much less than a stone elsewhere, since most people play correspondence games there. I would not be shocked if there were mid-level DDKs (say 15k) on KGS who were 30k on OGS.


I wouldn't be suprised if ogs 30k included literally everyone from 7d to actual 30k. It's like Tygem 18k.

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 3:16 pm
by gorogue
Uberdude wrote:Do not use OGS to measure your strength as a beginner as 30k there is very broad and includes many stronger players. Some (e.g. Bill) will say beginners shouldn't worry about rank but I can understand wanting to see a number changing to give feedback and encouragement of progress (I did and still do). Try KGS instead, though the beginner ranks there probably aren't as meaningful as they were a few years ago due to fewer players.


Everyone says to try KGS, but unfortunately the client will not work on my computer. I think part of the reason I can't improve much is that I was never a good visual thinker. It's really too bad, because I find myself very drawn to games like chess and go, but I have 0 aptitude for them because my visualization is so terrible. Maybe someone has overcome this and can give me advice? Anyway, I'll probably get back into it later when I have fewer "real-life" responsibilities to worry about.

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 3:18 pm
by Abyssinica
gorogue wrote:
Uberdude wrote:Do not use OGS to measure your strength as a beginner as 30k there is very broad and includes many stronger players. Some (e.g. Bill) will say beginners shouldn't worry about rank but I can understand wanting to see a number changing to give feedback and encouragement of progress (I did and still do). Try KGS instead, though the beginner ranks there probably aren't as meaningful as they were a few years ago due to fewer players.


Everyone says to try KGS, but unfortunately the client will not work on my computer. I think part of the reason I can't improve much is that I was never a good visual thinker. It's really too bad, because I find myself very drawn to games like chess and go, but I have 0 aptitude for them because my visualization is so terrible. Maybe someone has overcome this and can give me advice? Anyway, I'll probably get back into it later when I have fewer "real-life" responsibilities to worry about.


Dsaun frequently says he doesn't know how to read, but that he knows shape and can go into a fighting situation and be fairly confident that his position won't implode.

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 6:26 pm
by skydyr
Abyssinica wrote:
gorogue wrote:
Uberdude wrote:Do not use OGS to measure your strength as a beginner as 30k there is very broad and includes many stronger players. Some (e.g. Bill) will say beginners shouldn't worry about rank but I can understand wanting to see a number changing to give feedback and encouragement of progress (I did and still do). Try KGS instead, though the beginner ranks there probably aren't as meaningful as they were a few years ago due to fewer players.


Everyone says to try KGS, but unfortunately the client will not work on my computer. I think part of the reason I can't improve much is that I was never a good visual thinker. It's really too bad, because I find myself very drawn to games like chess and go, but I have 0 aptitude for them because my visualization is so terrible. Maybe someone has overcome this and can give me advice? Anyway, I'll probably get back into it later when I have fewer "real-life" responsibilities to worry about.


Dsaun frequently says he doesn't know how to read, but that he knows shape and can go into a fighting situation and be fairly confident that his position won't implode.


Well, you have to understand that when he says he doesn't know how to read, he means that he doesn't read as deeply as some other people at his level, or that he doesn't want to put the effort in to read more deeply. Obviously he has some expectation of the outcome of situations.

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:37 am
by Tim C Koppang
gorogue wrote:Everyone says to try KGS, but unfortunately the client will not work on my computer. I think part of the reason I can't improve much is that I was never a good visual thinker....

I hate to be trite, but it may be that you simply need practice. The more you play a game like Go, the more you will learn which shapes are strong, and which are weak. From there you can hopefully begin to read out a position. But don't expect that to come right away. Sure, there are some people for which reading out a position comes naturally; however, that doesn't mean that you can't improve with practice. I know I have!

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:54 am
by Shenoute
This thread reminded me of what Catalin Taranu said in this interview
Catalin Taranu 5p wrote:In April of 1989 I played my first game of go. I don't exactly know why, but I remember that period well. The first two months were agony. Although I thought I understood the rules and the game certainly captivated me, I really didn't know what exactly to do. I gave it a shot and hoped I'd become a little better fast.

I think this is the only weakness of go, that starting period in which beginners get the rules explained but can't really do anything with them at all. The two months it took me to get a grasp of what really was the general idea, are no exception. Only people slightly obsessed with the game will come out on the other end of this. In that respect chess players are a lot better off, there may be more rules but the goal and the way of playing become clear much sooner than with go.

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 7:06 am
by oca
I remember the first question that came in my mind when I first discovered the game...
The question was :

With a position like that :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


is black territory that one :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . X ? ? |
$$ | . . . . . . X ? ? |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


or that one
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? O ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? X X X |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? X . . |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? X . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


and what about the white stone, is it a territory if there is a white stone into the territory :scratch: ?


I was thinking at that (not so far away) time that two eyes was an advanced concept that I had to learn later... :roll:

This really deep understanding of the game helped me to complete quite fast the proverb : "lose your 50" (or is it 500) first games (against Igowin for me)...

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:07 am
by Marcus
gorogue wrote:
Uberdude wrote:Do not use OGS to measure your strength as a beginner as 30k there is very broad and includes many stronger players. Some (e.g. Bill) will say beginners shouldn't worry about rank but I can understand wanting to see a number changing to give feedback and encouragement of progress (I did and still do). Try KGS instead, though the beginner ranks there probably aren't as meaningful as they were a few years ago due to fewer players.


Everyone says to try KGS, but unfortunately the client will not work on my computer. I think part of the reason I can't improve much is that I was never a good visual thinker. It's really too bad, because I find myself very drawn to games like chess and go, but I have 0 aptitude for them because my visualization is so terrible. Maybe someone has overcome this and can give me advice? Anyway, I'll probably get back into it later when I have fewer "real-life" responsibilities to worry about.


My answer would depend on what you mean by "visualization is so terrible". There's a lot of reading advice out there which suggests that you should be able to "see the stones on the board" as you're reading. I can't do that, not even a little. I've come to understand that this doesn't mean that I am not able to read out the patterns ... it simply means that I'm not processing the data in a visual manner (I also can't picture people's faces or visual details of a given location, no matter how familiar; this was an interesting quirk that led me to abandon my research into memory palaces since most memory palace advice I've read tends to heavily rely on the ability to picture a tangible, detailed location in one's head ... a feat I cannot seem to accomplish).

Having given this a bit of thought, I believe that I read on a go board in a similar fashion to reading a language (bear with me, I've never explained this before, and I don't know how accurate the metaphor really is). I learned (slowly) to read by starting with basic 2- and 3-stone shapes (akin to learning "letters" in an alphabet). Discovering the term Haengma and its implications really helped with this basic start to learning to read (for me, at least).

From there, combinations of basic shapes began to emerge in certain patterns, like ladders and nets (the "words" in my metaphor, or at least the more basic ones; consider these like the first words a child will learn). There are many variations and nuances to these, and to other similar "basic" combinations of shapes, but, like a child learning to speak, I don't know all the differences in usage and meaning.

Finally, basic shapes start to combine and affect other shapes across the board. Understanding these interactions is like understanding a sentence or paragraph in our new language, and is much more difficult. I can't say I understand too many of these right now. I'm still a child learning his basic words and how to use them.

With the above in mind, I tend not to "read ahead" in the traditional sense (or not very often; I find reading ahead very taxing, and frequently make mistakes because I "see" nothing). Instead, I read the board as it is and find whatever current meaning I can see. As I build my vocabulary, I learn new ways to use the words I've learned, and I add to the vocabulary I have with each game.

As you might imagine, this is an incredibly slow way to progress in skill. You will not reach shodan quickly using this method. I mean, I still haven't reached it, though I'm quite a casual go player, so I'm probably not a good role model. :P

So, that's my reading method. It would be interesting to hear comments on it, and on the metaphor. Fire away with your comments/criticism! :mrgreen:

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:05 am
by paK0
Marcus wrote:...


This might be one of the most useful posts I have ever read.

Re: Frustrated Beginner

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 2:28 pm
by Abyssinica
I think I might do a combination of that an traditional reading? I get so far into a sequence where I notice the fact that black has reduced white to a dead shape and thus, from experience, know Ican stop reading there. That's probaby a bad habit in some situations, but it's okay for the closed corner L&D problems.