unsolvable (math) problem for a whole year, help me!
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uPWarrior
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Re: unsolvable (math) problem for a whole year, help me!
You are right, I was focusing on the equivalence transformation and totally messed up the negation part.
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lemmata
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Re: unsolvable (math) problem for a whole year, help me!
Counterexamples are nice because they make short proofs. You should love them!
When you ask "what is", you must mean something more specific that you are forgetting to tell us. You have already defined X by describing the conditions that characterize its membership. That already says what set X "is". Let us also shorten the definition of X by letting R denote the real line. The parts in "" can be omitted.
MJK, can you use the following sets to make X? There's a long way and a short way. The short way takes advantage of the relationship between E4 and F.
If you stumble, try verifying that (a1<x<a2 ⇔ b1<x<b2) holds for every member of the sets A, B, C, D, En.
Does this help visualize cross-sections of the 5-dimensional set?
MJK wrote:Code: Select all
What is the following set X?
X =
{(a1, a2, b1, b2, x)|
({a1, a2, b1, b2, x} ⊂ {x|x is a real number})
and (a1<x<a2 ⇔ b1<x<b2)
and ~(a1=b1 and a2=b2)
}
('~' means 'not')
When you ask "what is", you must mean something more specific that you are forgetting to tell us. You have already defined X by describing the conditions that characterize its membership. That already says what set X "is". Let us also shorten the definition of X by letting R denote the real line. The parts in "" can be omitted.
Code: Select all
X = { "set of all" (a1, a2, b1, b2, x) in R^5
| "such that" (a1<x<a2 ⇔ b1<x<b2) and ~(a1=b1 and a2=b2) }MJK, can you use the following sets to make X? There's a long way and a short way. The short way takes advantage of the relationship between E4 and F.
Code: Select all
A={(a1,a2,b1,b2,x) in R^5| a1<a2 and b1<b2 and max(a1,b1) < x < min(a2,b2)}
B={(a1,a2,b1,b2,x) in R^5| a1<a2 and b1<b2 and (x <= min(a1,b1) OR x >= max(a2,b2)}
C={(a1,a2,b1,b2,x) in R^5| a1<a2 and b1 >= b2 and (x <= a1 OR x >= a2)}
D={(a1,a2,b1,b2,x) in R^5| a1 >= a2 and b1<b2 and (x <= b1 OR x >= b2)}
E1={(a1,a2,b1,b2,x) in R^5| a1 > a2 and b1 > b2}
E2={(a1,a2,b1,b2,x) in R^5| a1 > a2 and b1 = b2}
E3={(a1,a2,b1,b2,x) in R^5| a1 = a2 and b1 > b2}
E4={(a1,a2,b1,b2,x) in R^5| a1 = a2 and b1 = b2}
F={(a1,a2,b1,b2,x) in R^5| ~(a1=b1 and a2=b2)}
If you stumble, try verifying that (a1<x<a2 ⇔ b1<x<b2) holds for every member of the sets A, B, C, D, En.
Does this help visualize cross-sections of the 5-dimensional set?
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Bill Spight
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Re: unsolvable (math) problem for a whole year, help me!
MJK wrote:Yes I am trying to clearly define a set of a five-dimensional space.
But you only have 2 unbound variables in your original problem.
Edit:
Code: Select all
-b/2 < a+b < b/3
a/3 < a+b < -a/2
Now let's introduce another binding:
a = 1-b
which gives us
-b/2 < 1 < b/3
(1-b)/3 < 1 < (b-1)/2
Now let b = 3.5
which gives us
-3.5/2 < 1 < 3.5/3
-2.5/3 < 1 < 2.5/2
which is true.
What is not true is this:
-b/2 < x < b/3
<=>
(1-b)/3 < x < (b-1)/2
when x and b are unbound.
In that case the second inequality must hold for [i]all[/i] x in the range of the first inequality. It is the constraint upon x that allows both inequalities to hold.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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iazzi
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Re: unsolvable (math) problem for a whole year, help me!
The new statement is not equivalent to the original one. The point there is that in the transformed inequalities the bounds depend on the term between them. After you say x = alpha+beta, you should only leave one other independent variable, traditionally y=alpha-beta, but any other combination (e.g. 2alpha+beta) would be ok.
For example
-b/2 < a+b < b/3
a/3 < a+b < -a/2
can become, leaving only a as an independent variable
-x/2 + a/2 < x < x/3 - a/3
a/3 < x < -a/2
which are trivially equivalent, but do not have the same bounds.
now the question is, given four functions of x: a(x), b(x), c(x), d(x) and knowing that
a(x)<x<b(x) iff c(x)<x<d(x)
can we say that a=c, b=d?
The answer is, clearly, no, as the original problem shows.
Of course, if a, b, c, and d are constants, then the answer is yes, and the original problem is not a counterexample.
For example
-b/2 < a+b < b/3
a/3 < a+b < -a/2
can become, leaving only a as an independent variable
-x/2 + a/2 < x < x/3 - a/3
a/3 < x < -a/2
which are trivially equivalent, but do not have the same bounds.
now the question is, given four functions of x: a(x), b(x), c(x), d(x) and knowing that
a(x)<x<b(x) iff c(x)<x<d(x)
can we say that a=c, b=d?
The answer is, clearly, no, as the original problem shows.
Of course, if a, b, c, and d are constants, then the answer is yes, and the original problem is not a counterexample.
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lemmata
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Re: unsolvable (math) problem for a whole year, help me!
iazzi wrote:The new statement is not equivalent to the original one.
He is no longer interested in the original problem. It is all crossed out. The "new problem" seems to be a principle that he previously believed to be true, which he erroneously applied to the original problem.
EDIT:
The original problem that is now crossed out (the equation image) seems to be the following.