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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:24 am
by EdLee
Loons wrote: $$Bm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm21Basics time:
I wonder if B can do better than
above --
if W runs with
, it's worse for W;
if W does not run,
is better and stronger shape for B,
and one fewer lib for
:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BAbout (a): to peep or not to peep, and when ?
Hmm,
still feels
ajikeshi to me.
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:51 am
by emerus
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:01 am
by EdLee
Loons'
descend seems better than
:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WThe aji is quite different; Loons'
descend has much better aji for W
than
=
. The small gain by
doesn't seem to justify the bad aji.
We'll see if
comes back to haunt W in the future --
could be a long wait.
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:58 pm
by Loons
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
So white's stones will have to settle without connecting.
Edit:
I'm in the somewhat awkward position of this cut being sente for me. I feel this impels me to play
before revisiting the right. I'm not entirely comfortable with
, however to play there first seems like subpar direction.
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0I guess the alternative is something like
$$cm29 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm29 Black: 0 , White: 0Though white's play needs some work here.
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:13 pm
by EdLee
Loons wrote: however to play there first seems like subpar direction.
$$m29
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$m29Loon's
turn in his above variation seems a very big and happy move for B.
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:36 pm
by Loons
Reflecting, this seems like the honest way to play : It should be painful that white allowed this (I should make another Hitchhiker's Guide reference since I'm using future past tense).
White's corner shrank a little and c13 became misplaced since my last assessment, though white's move was more solid than my suggestion.
$$cm29 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm29 Black: 0 , White: 0$$cm29 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm29 Black: 0 , White: 0$$cm29 Strong contender : Depends how severe my followup is later
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm29 Strong contender : Depends how severe my followup is later$$cm29 Black is submissive
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm29 Black is submissive
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:27 pm
by emerus
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:42 pm
by EdLee
Probably much better for W to have played
directly here,
instead of the bad move
and bad resulting sequence.
The four
stones there, starting with
...
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:01 pm
by daal
This is shaping up to be a quite readable malkovitch from the both of you. Nice to see you back, Loons!
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:29 pm
by Loons
Thanks, daal.
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Surprises at every turn. I think the opening has been broadly good for me and emerus is trying to flip it on me somehow.
It's true I only have one stone on the bottom half of the board. I will answer.
Edit:
I'm going to call white trying to up the ante at every turn instead of follow my diagrams a victory. With that said I expect this, though
'a',
@
feels like something I've seen. We both want sente to revisit top, though I will be content with compensation here if white tries to leave prematurely (again).
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0Edit 2:
Actually I normally dislike this joseki for black. I will study it a bit and change my mind :
was at my liberty.
I am actually happy that emerus is spreading play out ; given I felt the opening's been broadly better for me, hastening the end shouldn't be bad for me. However, I must be careful not to become lax.
Final edit:
If you'll forgive my slightly neurotic re-editing, I'm come to some conclusions.
$$cm21 fig 1. White doesn't mind playing either 'b' later
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 fig 1. White doesn't mind playing either 'b' later$$cm21 fig 2. Black has 'a' or something around 'b' later.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 fig 2. Black has 'a' or something around 'b' later.
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:53 am
by emerus
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Was just putting the final formatting on a post I spent a good 30 minutes on. It wasn't that interesting so I'll just sum it up.
The main consideration is how black can take advantage of all the bad exchanges white made on the top? His advantage is that there are now less options for white in that area and he can act accordingly.
$$cm1 Still leaves white with decent potential
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm1 Still leaves white with decent potentialI don't see knockout blow for black. With any attack on the white group, the shoulder hit at 'a' will be a fine point to dodge with. Perhaps he should build off the shimari to eliminate the shoulder hit.
$$cm29 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm29 Black: 0 , White: 0If it goes as planned, the ball will be in black's court, he has two problems in the lower right or he can take care of the upper side.
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:53 am
by EdLee
$$m21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$m21emerus wrote: except now black can find a better way to clean up the aji on top.
See if either of them catches these:
B can atari (a) and capture the W stone in sente. Alternately, B can cut directly at (d) and make W crawl... The sequence
to
is quite bad for W.
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:07 am
by Loons
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
I will count and talk about my moyo after this joseki.
Stray thought edit :
$$cm1 May be a ko somewhere there
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm1 May be a ko somewhere there
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:34 am
by emerus
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:01 pm
by Loons
$$cm31 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm31 Black: 0 , White: 0
White's move was not extremely sente : Normally black responds by rescuuing P8 ; however here, we have a heavy white group on top I consider urgent.
My choice of two space high pincer was deliberate. I initially wanted to play low, but I am attacking here and I am fine with white trying to ek out a life locally or running.
$$cm31 fig 1. I pay points in the corner, but my position on the right and bottom is better
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm31 fig 1. I pay points in the corner, but my position on the right and bottom is better$$cm31 fig 2. I have strengthened white on the right.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm31 fig 2. I have strengthened white on the right.
above --
, it's worse for W;
is better and stronger shape for B,
:
still feels ajikeshi to me.
descend seems better than 
:
before revisiting the right. I'm not entirely comfortable with 
, however to play there first seems like subpar direction.
directly here,
and bad resulting sequence.
stones there, starting with 
... 
@ 
is quite bad for W.