Well, my record since those games is 3-1. My loss was against Zen 2d.
My first game I won with white against a 1d, after a peaceful fuseki my opponent invaded by a wall and died (after a hard fight).
ZenBot2 2d beat me with white the game after. I went for a kill, got cut, and winning an approach ko made my game too hard.
My third game, the first pincer joseki turned into an exciting running fight across the board. I felt like I had the harder fight, but my opponent eventually ran out of time fighting (my) picnic ko for the game. We were both in our last 20 second period for that ko.
Fourth, I got to play my mukai komoku Chinese. The game proceeded peacefully to the end: I made a moyo, white took territory, and we had a pair of intertwined dragons between them. Both dragons took the time to live, and my moyo turned out three points bigger.
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:25 pm
by Loons
I have a theory about fighting plays versus territorial plays. Fighting plays would include taking influence in joseki and playing tough resistances. Territorial plays being 'low risk' options (known invasions, taking territory in joseki).
Fighting moves have a higher cost than territorial moves Fighting moves have a higher reward than territorial moves Fighting mistakes are about equally costly to territorial mistakes Fighting blunders are more costly than territorial blunders
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:22 pm
by Loons
3-1 since.
My loss was interesting: My opponent overplayed in joseki, leaving a one step approach ko in my favour for about forty points and giving me a crazy wall. However I then kind of zoned out and played so passively I lost by twenty points. Those 2ds.
All my wins have been lucky, which is leading me to suspect that there are just a lot of interesting tesuji involved in any calls of life, death and killing. And if you are more likely to find more of them than your opponent, it seems like a viable strategy. I think I tend to play a little thick and slow while most of my opponents play fast, thin and then tough (which favours me).
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:51 am
by Loons
Playing seemingly under my rank has been a bit underwhelming. I'm not sure whether to continue ballooning those two SGFs or seperating games is better. Certainly the giant SGFs are interesting, however hard to follow (albeit interesting).
An interesting game! I like how black played sente to make white's shape ugly on the left and accepted a huge territory, but after white's ponnuki black's centre group was more of a liability than anything else. I guess the centre-left ko was slightly last-ditch; if white made a few more points in the centre black was behind, but then there were too few ko threats...
Edit: Silly me, no ko.
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:32 am
by EdLee
Loons wrote:
Fighting moves have a higher cost than territorial moves Fighting moves have a higher reward than territorial moves
Hi Loons, could you elaborate a little. How do you measure or quantify this 'cost' and 'reward' ?
Example: is it possible to have some numerical values for the cost and reward for B after this joseki:
$$B $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O O O . O . . . $$ | . O X X X . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .
[go]$$B $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O O O . O . . . $$ | . O X X X . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:34 am
by Loons
I'm afraid it's to some extent a personal anecdote.
Thick moves that will support fighting will leave one behind in territory.
Fighting someone better prepared for that fight - you have to sacrifice fairly big groups, or give too big a moyo back ...
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:48 am
by EdLee
Loons wrote:Thick moves that will support fighting will leave one behind in territory.
This seems to be comparing the value of solid territory to the potential (thickness/influence).
Which brings us to (at least) 3 cases:
Fighting moves have a higher 'cost'/'reward' than territorial moves;
Fighting moves have an equal 'cost'/'reward' as territorial moves;
Fighting moves have a lower 'cost'/'reward' than territorial moves
It's interesting your feeling is toward one of the three.
Mine is the middle: as long as both sides play perfectly, the resulting trade between territory and the potential is even. Example: joseki, locally. But as we know from pro games, sometimes one side will deliberately choose a result that's inferior locally, but which makes sense globally.
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:29 pm
by Loons
I mean, one might make a thick move instead of taking five points of territory (-5).
The compensation one might expect is that a later move will be worth perhaps five points more, or that the opponent will 'have' to play five points more conservatively.
So the moves are more precipitous (and seem to have more- variance, I guess). I'm not advancing the idea that higher fighting is more correct, I am rather surprised how well and evenly it works out given there are moments seemingly 5-10 points down. (While seemingly sandbagging 1k-1ds).
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:54 pm
by Loons
One problem I have is that if I play when I'm out of sorts or dead tired, I unequivocally lose. So I'm starting to maintain the self control to only play when I feel in good condition.
Possibly playing PeterN on my Sunday morning (in GMT+12-13).
Opponent let (many, many minutes of) his time run down here:
$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O O . . O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X X X O O O X X X X X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . O O X X . | $$ | . X O O . . . O . . . . X X X . O X . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . O O X . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . # . # O X O O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . # O O X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O O O X X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . x . X O X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . 1 . O . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O O . . O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X X X O O O X X X X X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . O O X X . | $$ | . X O O . . . O . . . . X X X . O X . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . O O X . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . # . # O X O O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . # O O X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O O O X X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . x . X O X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . 1 . O . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
We've just exchanged one through three. My felt slightly speculative ( @ ?) and my certainly feels opportunistic.
What's even going on in this board though!
I speculate that I'm ahead because my left is thick and I seem to have weird aji everywhere, though I don't like and .
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:52 pm
by xed_over
Loons wrote:Yamashita's white seems deliberately unpredictable.
4/15 games were nirensei, 4/15 were centre/influence strategies characterized by 5-4/6-4 and tengen. The rest were a mixed bag of 3-4s and more 4-4s. Only in 2/15 games has been repeated.
His strategy is typically high and fighting despite common exceptions. He has not allowed minichinese, playing the normal counterapproach resistance instead. A recurring joseki occurs when he plays tenuki from a 4-4 approach (eg to deny minichinese).
I thought you might like to have your Yamashita's white collection with the one game that starts in the lower left, reoriented to start in the upper right, like the other games in the same collection.
while read line; do if [[ "$line" =~ \[([a-s])([a-s])\] ]]; then one=$(printf "\x$(printf %x $((212-$(printf "%d" \'${BASH_REMATCH[1]}))))"); two=$(printf "\x$(printf %x $((212-$(printf "%d" \'${BASH_REMATCH[2]}))))"); echo $line | sed -e "s/${BASH_REMATCH[1]}${BASH_REMATCH[2]}/$one$two/g"; else echo "$line"; fi; done < Yamashita-white-4.sgf
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:46 am
by oren
It might have been intentionally started to be opposite normal.
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:08 am
by xed_over
oren wrote:It might have been intentionally started to be opposite normal.
that's possible, of course, but very, very rare, and not very likely. And since it transposes so nicely, it makes comparing with other games so much easier, regardless.
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:17 pm
by oren
xed_over wrote:
oren wrote:It might have been intentionally started to be opposite normal.
that's possible, of course, but very, very rare, and not very likely. And since it transposes so nicely, it makes comparing with other games so much easier, regardless.
Yeah. Yoda has done it before, and it's nice to know from records when it does happen, since it is so rare.
Re: Revisiting Go
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:17 am
by Loons
...Clearly... ...Deliberate...
As always, life seems to leave no time for go. Happily, (in just a few of the last 24 hours) I eventually finally wrote a go bot. My brother suggested such exploits could warrant a website, so I made an extremely inane blogspot (http://programmingimaging.blogspot.co.nz/). (My go bot, like everything else I do ever is just a slapping together of MATLAB image processing functions (likely making it the most expensive to own go bot in existence)).
Now, I don't know what "Monte Carlo" means (Mount Carlos?), but that has not stopped me when it probably should have.
felt slightly speculative ( 
?) and my 
certainly feels opportunistic.