Page 3 of 3
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:56 am
by Charles Matthews
The plays 14, 24, 26, 30 and 32 all seem questionable to me. A two stone handicap is about 15 points, say. This is not enough so that you can play tightly for territory from the start. Invade the top side three-space extension, at least.
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:18 am
by Bill Spight
(;ST[2]GM[1]SZ[19]CA[UTF-8]FF[4]AP[GOWrite:2.3.46]RE[W+23.50]HA[2]PB[greendemon]PC[The KGS Go Server at http\://www.gokgs.com/]RU[Chinese]KM[0.50]C[ZenBot3 \[3d\]\: GTP Engine for ZenBot3 (white)\: Zen version 10.4]DT[2015-01-21]PM[2]PW[ZenBot3]FG[259:]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]TM[600]BR[1d]GN[ ]WR[3d]
;B[qd]C[I actually forgot that chinese rules include free handicap placement, I thought I accidently took an even game somehow.]BL[589.913]
;B[dp]BL[536.894]
;W[dd]WL[597.766]
;B[pp]BL[531.398]
;W[oc]WL[595.456]
;B[pe]BL[516.941]
;W[kc]WL[593.22]
;B[cf]BL[504.009]
;W[fd]WL[590.973]
;B[bd]BL[501.271]
;W[cc]WL[588.672]
;B[ci]BL[499.499]
;W[cn]WL[586.36]
(
;B[cl]C[Seems to work with my top left group
***A kind of overconcentration. See variation.]BL[493.753]
;W[cq]WL[584.032]
;B[cp]BL[492.061]
;W[dq]WL[581.777]
;B[ep]BL[489.468]
;W[bp]WL[579.435]
;B[bo]BL[488.52]
;W[bq]WL[577.147]
;B[co]BL[487.518]
;W[fq]WL[574.815]
(
;B[go]C[*** See variation.]BL[480.757]
;W[qn]WL[572.551]
;B[nq]BL[474.468]
;W[rp]WL[570.269]
(
;B[qq]C[*** Do you really want White to extend on the right side? See variation.]BL[472.881]
;W[qk]WL[568.004]
;B[pc]C[*** Not good, as you know.]BL[465.327]
;W[od]C[*** Now White has an ideal extension.]WL[565.7]
(
;B[qi]C[I don't really know if there was a better way to play the upper right. White has the good extension shape on top, but my stones seem happy and I took the corner.
*** Thin. See variation.]BL[463.32]
;W[nf]C[*** Good!]WL[563.448]
(
;B[hq]C[Seems big
*** What is big is the frontier of two frameworks. See variations.]BL[455.701]
;W[gq]WL[561.185]
;B[hp]BL[451.601]
;W[dh]C[White is trying to build a top moyo. I want to play as calmly as possible, no need to over react
]WL[558.892]
(
;B[ch]C[*** Gets pushed around. See variation.]BL[442.287]
;W[df]WL[556.593]
;B[dg]BL[440.678]
;W[eg]WL[554.286]
;B[cg]BL[439.994]
;W[eh]WL[552.023]
(
;B[og]C[Limit his growth and solidify the side
*** Strengthens White. See variations.]BL[423.936]
;W[ng]WL[549.727]
(
;B[nh]C[*** Thin. See variation.]BL[415.589]
;W[of]WL[547.349]
;B[pf]BL[410.333]
;W[mh]C[*** Ouch!]WL[545.07]
;B[ni]C[*** Thin.]BL[405.132]
;W[mi]WL[542.711]
;B[fj]C[Threaten to make points on the left
*** Not bad. But if you are not willing to extend once more on the right side, don't extend the first time. Allowing the double atari is painful, but what happened is painful, too.]BL[390.207]
;W[gi]WL[540.363]
;B[gj]C[*** White gains more from walling off his territory than Black does.]BL[383.416]
;W[hj]WL[538.108]
;B[fi]BL[378.345]
;W[gh]WL[535.854]
;B[hk]BL[375.047]
;W[ik]C[Not sure how to react to this double hane. Is the atari good?]WL[533.582]
;B[ij]BL[365.913]
;W[hi]WL[531.274]
(
;B[il]C[*** Strengthens White. See variation.]BL[356.304]
;W[jk]WL[528.973]
;B[jl]C[seems OK...
*** Thin.
End of comments.]BL[353.445]
;W[kl]WL[526.671]
;B[kk]BL[350.261]
;W[jj]C[Up to now I've tried hard to play calmly and avoid overplays, maybe even at the expense of points. But now I feel like I have a chance to cut the L8 stone off]WL[524.403]
;B[kj]BL[340.274]
;W[ji]WL[522.089]
;B[mj]C[going for the cut. Maybe O9 was better.
]BL[337.197]
;W[nj]WL[519.8]
;B[mk]BL[333.221]
;W[oh]C[seems like the O11 stones aren't important any more. Maybe I should've let P13 go also.]WL[517.527]
(
;B[pg]BL[330.317]
;W[lm]WL[515.181]
(
;B[ll]C[I realized too late that black can't play this way.]BL[317.875]
;W[km]WL[512.916]
;B[mm]BL[316.834]
;W[nl]WL[510.642]
;B[ml]BL[308.368]
;W[hl]C[very bad for black. I have to decide what to give up.]WL[508.397]
(
;B[gk]BL[299.019]
;W[im]WL[506.099]
;B[ln]BL[295.004]
;W[kn]WL[503.842]
;B[lo]BL[290.563]
;W[ko]WL[501.45]
;B[kp]BL[287.163]
;W[jp]WL[499.169]
;B[jq]C[reckless!]BL[278.955]
;W[lp]C[white pounces immediately. One thing about ZenBot3 is that it plays very fast. Even though there is 30 second byo-yomi it plays most moves in less than 5 seconds. I'm not sure I've ever seen it even get to byo-yomi. It can be hard not to get caught up in its pace.]WL[496.753]
;B[kq]BL[277.093]
;W[mn]WL[494.487]
;B[mo]BL[274.256]
;W[nn]C[Now black has to live somehow... looks very bad]WL[492.159]
;B[nm]BL[259.335]
;W[om]WL[489.842]
;B[nk]BL[243.167]
;W[oi]WL[487.555]
;B[ol]BL[238.929]
;W[pm]WL[485.258]
;B[ki]C[desperation...]BL[223.618]
(
;W[kh]C[why did white respond?]WL[482.976]
;B[oj]BL[211.307]
;W[pj]WL[480.644]
;B[ni]C[Well I live anyway.]BL[207.273]
;W[pi]C[Protecting with R12 seems big, but there are a lot of other moves I want to try to get.]WL[478.343]
;B[no]BL[165.036]
;W[on]WL[475.987]
;B[gl]BL[142.334]
;W[hm]WL[473.598]
;B[pb]BL[124.993]
;W[qh]WL[471.361]
;B[qg]BL[114.884]
;W[ph]WL[468.994]
;B[ma]BL[105.215]
;W[nb]WL[466.683]
;B[na]BL[102.685]
;W[lb]WL[464.311]
;B[hr]BL[78.525]
;W[gm]WL[462.048]
;B[fm]BL[75.768]
;W[fn]C[That cut can't work, can it?]WL[459.676]
;B[gn]BL[68.433]
;W[en]WL[457.363]
;B[fo]BL[59.785]
;W[dl]WL[455.031]
;B[em]BL[37.825]
;W[dm]WL[452.692]
;B[ek]BL[27.606]
;W[dj]WL[450.385]
;B[dk]BL[17.941]
;W[ck]WL[448.115]
;B[cj]BL[12.386]
;W[bk]C[the top stones are in danger of death]WL[445.835]
(
;B[di]BL[30.0]OB[5]
;W[bn]WL[443.503]
;B[ao]BL[30.0]OB[5]
;W[bl]WL[441.194]
;B[bj]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[el]WL[438.873]
;B[fl]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[cm]C[White lives, and any hope I had of winning the game dies. Well played, zenbot.]WL[436.551]
;B[er]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[eq]WL[434.094]
;B[fs]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[fr]WL[431.848]
;B[gs]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[dr]WL[429.492]
;B[es]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[bs]WL[427.199]
;B[bc]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[bb]WL[424.945]
;B[cd]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[dc]WL[422.713]
;B[de]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[ef]WL[420.402]
;B[rq]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[oo]WL[417.494]
;B[op]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[rg]WL[415.196]
;B[rf]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[rh]WL[412.942]
;B[jo]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[li]WL[410.672]
;B[lj]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[jh]WL[408.304]
;B[ee]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[fe]WL[406.057]
;B[ro]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[qo]WL[403.773]
;B[qp]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[rn]WL[401.498]
;B[sp]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[sf]WL[399.073]
;B[se]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[sg]WL[396.792]
;B[re]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[ob]WL[394.499]
;B[oa]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[la]WL[392.209]
;B[ab]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[ba]WL[389.941]
;B[ap]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[aq]WL[387.639]
;B[ds]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[cs]WL[385.342]
;B[jn]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[jm]WL[383.075]
;B[pl]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[ql]WL[380.713]
;B[oe]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[ne]WL[378.393]
;B[hn]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[in]WL[376.119]
;B[io]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[mb]WL[373.819]
;B[pa]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[pd]WL[371.536]
;B[qc]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[ed]WL[369.268]
;B[ce]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[ei]WL[367.009]
;B[ej]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[fh]WL[364.743]
;B[po]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[pn]WL[362.478]
;B[sn]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[rm]WL[360.106]
;B[pk]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[sm]WL[357.82]
;B[so]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[gr]WL[355.557]
;B[hs]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[aj]WL[353.123]
;B[ai]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[ak]WL[350.846]
;B[an]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[am]WL[348.552]
;B[eo]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[dn]WL[346.242]
;B[nj]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[nh]WL[343.968]
;B[ac]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[cb]WL[341.634]
;B[aa]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[gp]WL[339.353]
;B[ho]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[hc]WL[337.054]
;B[fp]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[do]WL[334.753]
;B[tt]BL[30.0]OB[4]
;W[tt]WL[334.751]TW[al][ar:cr][as][bm][ca:ka][cl][db:kb][ec:gc][ff:mg][gd:nd][ge:me][hh:ih][ic:jc][ii:ij][il:jl][lc:nc][lh][qi:sj][qm][rk:sl][sh]TB[ad][ae:bh][bi][dj][fk][ip:jp][iq][ir:ss][lk][lp:np][lq:mq][nl][ok][oq:pq][qa:sb][qe:qf][rc:sd][rp][sq]
)
(
;B[bl]
;W[el]
;B[fl]
;W[ej]
)
)
(
;W[ok]C[I would play here immediately, but Zenbot is stronger than me...]
;B[jh]
;W[ii]
;B[pk]
;W[oj]
;B[pl]
;W[pj]
;B[ql]
;W[qj]
;B[on]
;W[no]
;B[qm]
;W[pn]
;C[maybe there's this risk?]B[rn]
)
)
(
;C[maybe this is better?]B[im]
;W[gk]
;B[hm]
)
)
(
;B[nk]
;W[oj]
;B[nm]
)
)
(
;C[Looks better than the game.]B[mm]
)
)
(
;B[hl]
)
)
(
;C[*** Maybe. ]B[jh]
)
)
(
;C[*** Black would like to play here, but . . .]B[jd]
;W[jf]
)
(
;C[*** Lighter, but ]B[je]
;W[jg]
)
(
;C[*** Maybe here?]B[kg]
)
)
(
;B[ef]
;W[ch]
;C[*** Big.]B[gf]
)
)
(
;C[*** Expands the Black framework while forestalling the development of the White framework.]B[fg]
)
(
;C[*** Maybe the best play.]B[jd]
)
)
(
;C[*** Solid. Secures the corner and threatens to go into the top side.]B[pb]
)
)
(
;B[gq]
)
)
(
;B[mc]
(
;W[mb]
;B[qj]
)
(
;W[oe]
;B[of]
;W[ne]
;B[pg]
;W[ld]
;B[pc]
;W[ob]
;C[*** Other plays are fine, as well.]B[qn]
)
)
)
(
;B[co]
;W[dn]
;B[fq]
;W[ck]C[*** Now White is overconcentrated.]
)
)
You lost the game because you let White develop the top side -- and how!
But your play was also thin. You left serious weaknesses behind, which White took advantage of. So my general advice is to play more thickly.
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:40 am
by Charles Matthews
Uberdude wrote:emeraldemon on move 14 wrote:Seems to work with my top left group
On the contrary, it is inefficient with it, better would be to kick [...]
Indeed this position (very nearly) is discussed as a diagram in one of my articles:
http://gobase.org/studying/articles/matthews/fuseki/01/
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:55 am
by emeraldemon
I had a player resign immediately against me in automatch, which set my rank as solid 1d. So then I played this game giving two stones to a player I should probably play even against:
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=5587&sid=0615b982f01109aebc94e6c7ecd8ea4f
and I won! KGS thinks I am 2d now, there's no way that's true, but I'm looking forward to playing against stronger players than I usually do, I hope to play my best and fight to death, maybe I can keep the rank for a while. Who knows, maybe I can use it to pull myself up!
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:16 am
by amatterof
For move 111, I think it should still be seki. O16 is sente, so you can play that first and then come back to connect at K15.
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:31 am
by Uberdude
RE move 8, breakfast did that against me in our OGS game (
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7840). His r6 push was a bit unusual (slide more common), but you absolutely must extend, you can't let him hane there. His o5 is a bit much, and you shouldn't be so obedient to defend the cut but take the key point at q7. You seem rather confused in that corner, for example in the variation for 39 (yes better than solid connect) why did you think black would play 40 at p5? It takes away his own liberties and gives your 3 stones more, for example now if q7 and you p7 then p6 cut no longer threatens a snapback (and is shorter of liberties).
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:55 am
by emeraldemon
@amatterof
thanks, that was a huge move that we both missed, I fought a ko I didn't have to fight...
@uberdude
So how should white play if black cuts? A running fight like this?
$$Bcm36 cut?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . 9 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . O X X X O . . . . . . 8 7 . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . 6 1 5 O X . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . , . 0 . 4 3 O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . X . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm36 cut?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . 9 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . O X X X O . . . . . . 8 7 . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . 6 1 5 O X . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . , . 0 . 4 3 O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . X . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:55 pm
by tentano
Seems like you defended 1d quite well. You really did seem the stronger player in this game.
Good luck defending 2d!
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:20 am
by Charles Matthews
emeraldemon wrote: [...] and I won!
Both players fighters. But before White 215 both apparently missed F17. Beware the "shunt".
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:27 am
by Charles Matthews
emeraldemon wrote:
So how should white play if black cuts?
$$Bcm36 cut?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . 2 6 . . |
$$ | . O X X X O . . . . . . . 4 . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . 5 1 . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . , . . . . 3 O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . X . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm36 cut?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . 2 6 . . |
$$ | . O X X X O . . . . . . . 4 . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . 5 1 . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . , . . . . 3 O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . X . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Like this, when the two white stones in the lower right are Black's headache, not yours? You have gained hugely on the left.
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:55 am
by mitsun
Charles Matthews wrote:emeraldemon wrote: [...] and I won!
Both players fighters. But before White 215 both apparently missed F17. Beware the "shunt".
Didn't Black 186 take care of that?
Re: Losing 50 more games
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:52 pm
by Charles Matthews
mitsun wrote:Charles Matthews wrote:emeraldemon wrote: [...] and I won!
Both players fighters. But before White 215 both apparently missed F17. Beware the "shunt".
Didn't Black 186 take care of that?
Ah, you are correct! As they say, the players see more of the game than the kibbitzers.