Life In 19x19

DrStraw wrote: I have seen it work first-hand on several pets over the years. My wife believes it and I think it sounds crazy, but how can you explain that homeopathic concoctions have provided almost instant relieve on multiple occasions and save the live of at least one cat in our family?

Maybe the cat needed some water?

Uberdude wrote:

DrStraw wrote: I have seen it work first-hand on several pets over the years. My wife believes it and I think it sounds crazy, but how can you explain that homeopathic concoctions have provided almost instant relieve on multiple occasions and save the live of at least one cat in our family?

Maybe the cat needed some water?

Very droll. If that were the case then it would not recover without water. The cat in question was within 24 hours of being euthanized for seizures the vet said were incurable. The cat was our son's and in desperation he called my wife, who didn't have much hope but made some recommendations. There was almost instant relieve, the cat rest for the first time in days, and lived another twelve years.

As I said, I am not a big believer, and I have no explanation for it. But I have seen it work and it is hard to argue with that.

DrStraw wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

DrStraw wrote: I have seen it work first-hand on several pets over the years. My wife believes it and I think it sounds crazy, but how can you explain that homeopathic concoctions have provided almost instant relieve on multiple occasions and save the live of at least one cat in our family?

Maybe the cat needed some water?

Very droll. If that were the case then it would not recover without water. The cat in question was within 24 hours of being euthanized for seizures the vet said were incurable. The cat was our son's and in desperation he called my wife, who didn't have much hope but made some recommendations. There was almost instant relieve, the cat rest for the first time in days, and lived another twelve years.

As I said, I am not a big believer, and I have no explanation for it. But I have seen it work and it is hard to argue with that.

Well first of all: No one knows what would have happened if the cat did not get homeopathic treatment, and the vet could have erred, too.

And then there are several reasons why there is a placebo effect in animals. One reason is conditioning: Ther is a famous experiment where rats got fed a sweet solution of cylcosporin, a immune supressant. After some time the rats would respond with a supressed immune system after being given just sweet water.

Then there is an effefct that does not affect the animals: Humans just cannot be unbiased observers if they expect an effect. There is e.g. a veterinary thesis (in german) that investigated mineral supplements for horses in a randomized controlled fashion. The author reported that the placebo effect was so strong that it essentially prevented all other analyses. The riders had to judge the effect of the treatment.

There is also a famous experiment that I read somewhere. Unfortunatley I don't find it, if someone could point me to a link a wouold be grateful: They recruited people that then had to watch rats mastering a maze challenge or something. If the observers were told that the rat in question was specificlal trained or bright, they would confirm that based on their observations, even if all rats were the same.
There is a lot to observe in random fluctuations.

I think both these examples would not apply in the case of your cat, but I belive it is just a case of natural recovery. Without knowing how many cats would not have responded to the treatment and how many cats would have survived without treatment one cannot draw a conclusion.
Interestingly: Whenever one studies such things in a randomized controlled fashion, the effect is gone.

Unfortunately the human brain seems to work exactly opposite as science when it comes to judging the reliability of information:
One first hand experinece or a single example usually seems to be more convincing than the collected statistcial evidence of many cases.

Uberdude wrote:Maybe the cat needed some water?

It's tongue in cheek of course, but I've been speculating for a long time that the effect of medicine (homeopatic) or not, is magnified by the installed habit of regular ingestion of water. How many people actually drink a couple of glasses of water each day? Let alone at regular times? Many among us drink coffee and get the rest of our water supply through food.

I wouldn't underestimate this effect at all. Even with cats.

DrStraw wrote:

leichtloeslich wrote:The physical principles on which homeopathy is grounded on however are just batshit crazy. If you could prove that it works you would surely get the Nobel prize in physics (or chemistry).

I absolutely agree with this except for one small problem. I have seen it work first-hand on several pets over the years. My wife believes it and I think it sounds crazy, but how can you explain that homeopathic concoctions have provided almost instant relieve on multiple occasions and save the live of at least one cat in our family? With humans you can claim it is the placebo effect, but these pets didn't even know they were getting it.

No, but your wife did. Presumably she administered the concoctions or was present when they were administered, and the pets could have reacted to her.

leichtloeslich wrote:What's interesting is not that dowsing doesn't work, it's the explanations the dowsers come up with after being objectively proved wrong.

Knotwilg wrote:When people are emotionally attached to something, no rational or scientific argument will convince them.

DrStraw wrote:I absolutely agree with this except for one small problem. I have seen it work first-hand on several pets over the years.

From this point on, a large-scale argument to disprove that homeopathy works has taken place.

I would simply like to present these condensed quotes as an interesting caveat.

Knotwilg wrote:

Uberdude wrote:Maybe the cat needed some water?

It's tongue in cheek of course, but I've been speculating for a long time that the effect of medicine (homeopatic) or not, is magnified by the installed habit of regular ingestion of water. How many people actually drink a couple of glasses of water each day? Let alone at regular times? Many among us drink coffee and get the rest of our water supply through food.

I wouldn't underestimate this effect at all. Even with cats.

I take my homeopathic infusions in brandy, thank you very much. It enhances the effect.

Phoenix wrote:

leichtloeslich wrote:What's interesting is not that dowsing doesn't work, it's the explanations the dowsers come up with after being objectively proved wrong.

Knotwilg wrote:When people are emotionally attached to something, no rational or scientific argument will convince them.

DrStraw wrote:I absolutely agree with this except for one small problem. I have seen it work first-hand on several pets over the years.

From this point on, a large-scale argument to disprove that homeopathy works has taken place.

I would simply like to present these condensed quotes as an interesting caveat. ;-)

Personally, I already become sicker when I just read the patient information leaflet of regular medicine.
It's actually a good thing about homeopathy that it has no medically effect (scientifically speaking), so no side effects as well. And I can be a happy chap because it still works for me =)

By the way, I find these arguments about homeopathy always a bit misplaced. Homeopathy harms no one to my knowledge. Freedom of choice, anyone?

SoDesuNe wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

leichtloeslich wrote:What's interesting is not that dowsing doesn't work, it's the explanations the dowsers come up with after being objectively proved wrong.

Knotwilg wrote:When people are emotionally attached to something, no rational or scientific argument will convince them.

DrStraw wrote:I absolutely agree with this except for one small problem. I have seen it work first-hand on several pets over the years.

From this point on, a large-scale argument to disprove that homeopathy works has taken place.

I would simply like to present these condensed quotes as an interesting caveat.

Personally, I already become sicker when I just read the patient information leaflet of regular medicine.
It's actually a good thing about homeopathy that it has no medically effect (scientifically speaking), so no side effects as well. And I can be a happy chap because it still works for me =)

By the way, I find these arguments about homeopathy always a bit misplaced. Homeopathy harms no one to my knowledge. Freedom of choice, anyone?

I'm all for the freedom of personal choices. However, the personal health choices we all make are never isolated and affect others in ways we may never anticipate. Communicable and infectious diseases don't respect the personal boundaries that we set for ourselves. Using homeopathic remedies to treat the flu can have disastrous effects far beyond the infected individual. Believing that Ebola is a punishment from God kills people.

If there's one realm where pseudoscience can produce its most lethal consequences, it's without a doubt in the realm of medicine. Another link:

http://www.1023.org.uk/whats-the-harm-in-homeopathy.php

SoDesuNe wrote:Personally, I already become sicker when I just read the patient information leaflet of regular medicine.
It's actually a good thing about homeopathy that it has no medically effect (scientifically speaking), so no side effects as well. And I can be a happy chap because it still works for me =)

By the way, I find these arguments about homeopathy always a bit misplaced. Homeopathy harms no one to my knowledge. Freedom of choice, anyone?

Yes, many medicines/treatments have nasty side effects (a big story in the UK currently is about a 5-year-old boy with a brain tumour whose parents didn't want him to have X-ray treatment as it can leave you with permanent brain damage even if it cures the tumour but the alternative they wanted (of unclear efficacy) was not available on the NHS so they took him abroad and got arrested, apparently for neglect which it seems they didn't) and so for mild illness that can sort itself out on its own with a little help from the placebo effect/rest/care/time can be 'helped' by homeopathy. But the issue comes from informed consent and dubious claims/fraud from homeopaths. I don't want my tax money boosting the profits of a company fraudulently selling very expensive water (but neither do I like subsidising middle-England putting solar panels on their roofs, six figure salaries for council executives who oversee over 1000+ children in care homes being raped, or paying for dole claimants' Sky TV subscriptions). But if the doctor is honest about the water he's giving you the placebo effect is reduced so it's tricky.

As for homeopathy not harming anyone, if it causes you to not seek effective medical treatment it most definitely can harm. To take a famous example: Steve Jobs. I don't know if he was into homeopathy specifically but he tried to treat his pancreatic cancer with alternative medicine before turning to conventional. Had he not done so he might still be alive today.

SoDesuNe wrote:By the way, I find these arguments about homeopathy always a bit misplaced. Homeopathy harms no one to my knowledge. Freedom of choice, anyone?

7 year old dies of strep throat.
9 month old killed by septicemia.
baby dies of eye infection.

When we pretend this is medicine, people use it as medicine and die. It's one thing when an adult makes this choice for themselves, but very often it's children who suffer. So I don't find reminding people that homeopathy doesn't work at all misplaced, as belief in it has lead to preventable deaths and will continue leading to deaths.

SoDesuNe wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

leichtloeslich wrote:What's interesting is not that dowsing doesn't work, it's the explanations the dowsers come up with after being objectively proved wrong.

Knotwilg wrote:When people are emotionally attached to something, no rational or scientific argument will convince them.

DrStraw wrote:I absolutely agree with this except for one small problem. I have seen it work first-hand on several pets over the years.

From this point on, a large-scale argument to disprove that homeopathy works has taken place.

I would simply like to present these condensed quotes as an interesting caveat.

Personally, I already become sicker when I just read the patient information leaflet of regular medicine.
It's actually a good thing about homeopathy that it has no medically effect (scientifically speaking), so no side effects as well. And I can be a happy chap because it still works for me =)

By the way, I find these arguments about homeopathy always a bit misplaced. Homeopathy harms no one to my knowledge. Freedom of choice, anyone?

A lot of the heavy "homeopaths FTW, MDs suck big time!" people are also against vaccinating their children (I have a case in my family and see if first-hand...) This not only has made several almost totally eradicated stuff (measles, and some others I don't remember the names in English now) re-appear in "Western" countries, but also endangers people who can not be vaccinated for real reasons.

Also, imagine being against tetanus vaccine after breaking an arm. And being against any kind of pharmaceutical pain reliever for that. In a (your) child.

Or, being against any kind of medical antibiotic or painkiller after the removal of a wisdom tooth.

It can get to extreme, totally unhealthy levels.

Bill Spight wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

leichtloeslich wrote:The physical principles on which homeopathy is grounded on however are just batshit crazy. If you could prove that it works you would surely get the Nobel prize in physics (or chemistry).

I absolutely agree with this except for one small problem. I have seen it work first-hand on several pets over the years. My wife believes it and I think it sounds crazy, but how can you explain that homeopathic concoctions have provided almost instant relieve on multiple occasions and save the live of at least one cat in our family? With humans you can claim it is the placebo effect, but these pets didn't even know they were getting it.

No, but your wife did. Presumably she administered the concoctions or was present when they were administered, and the pets could have reacted to her.

She was a thousand miles away and had a lot of trouble talking out son into trying it because he was convinced there was no way it would work.

You can't lead an argument by saying there are dumb people in the world.
Sadly, there are parents who kill their children and yes, among others they do it by mistreating them medically. Sadly, there are people who generally oppose vaccines and allow eradicated diseases to re-occur. Sadly, there are also people who smoke and drive drunk. Sadly, there are even people who start wars over books.

I never claimed, homeopathy will cure everything. But I could be a real nit-picker and say, homeopathy still does not harm anyone. A misguided belief harms people, not a piece of something which has no scientifically effect. If people start projecting conspiracies or similar stuff into homoepathy then we come back to "There are dumb people in the world".