Alright, forget the last plan. I'm going to take advantage the large knight up here now while I still can. Perhaps I'll put in a move around the other area later depending on the response to this. W was probably just waiting for move I was about to play to attack me and make a very secure group on the top--I don't want a repeat of the bottom. Also notice how it looks similar to this:
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . X X X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . O . . . O . X O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . X X X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . O . . . O . X O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now--going out on a limb--w probably wouldn't be happy with a result like this (thus it'll end up different), but I'm showing you how the position looks looks similar to one of the standard pincer joseki. The only difference locally is my stone on the 2nd line to the right. Honestly, I'm not sure what w will do with a move like this. Surely the above scenario would be quite disheartening, but letting me eat O17 and make tons of territory, or worse, letting me ruin a lot of potential on the top in sente would not be good at all.
Re: 62. Kie (1d) vs. FlamingMetroidzd (2k)
Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:42 am
by Harleqin
I think that there were three or four moves to consider, the deciding factor being how deep one needs to go because of the score:
Not my first choice for invasion, but it is ultra-safe like all other black moves so far. The main draw-back is that black hasn't got to use his influence stones very well so far. White has points and good positions on the board and feels almost no pressure at all. So, white being behind in territory I can still play the endgame and make invasions from solid positions, so I should have decent chances to catch up.
Typical response by me. I believe it would be quite beneficial to slip under, so w probably won't let it happen.
Re: 62. Kie (1d) vs. FlamingMetroidzd (2k)
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:53 pm
by Chew Terr
observers:
I could be mistaken, as FM is a fair amount stronger than me, but I'm not big on this last move. It seems fairly aji-keshi, as it's kind of helping white to build the moyo he most wants? Can anyone set me straight on this?
Re: 62. Kie (1d) vs. FlamingMetroidzd (2k)
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:14 pm
by Kie
No problem, I just moved into a new apartment so no loss in time.
I could be mistaken, as FM is a fair amount stronger than me, but I'm not big on this last move. It seems fairly aji-keshi, as it's kind of helping white to build the moyo he most wants? Can anyone set me straight on this?
I am no fan of invading at M17. Basically what Harlequin said.
Re: 62. Kie (1d) vs. FlamingMetroidzd (2k)
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:51 am
by Chew Terr
unkx80 wrote:
Chew Terr wrote:observers:
I could be mistaken, as FM is a fair amount stronger than me, but I'm not big on this last move. It seems fairly aji-keshi, as it's kind of helping white to build the moyo he most wants? Can anyone set me straight on this?
I am no fan of invading at M17. Basically what Harlequin said.
Sorry, I meant the followup. I understood why Harlequin said that the invasion was bad, but I wasn't big on the followup, either. Or is this just black's best local option?
Swallowing O17. Barring some sort of exchange, W will get a nice wall, but the potential territory is open towards the center, so can be reduced. Also, he'll have invested too many stones in it so must answer D18 and D16 moves, which secure the corner for me.
I could be mistaken, as FM is a fair amount stronger than me, but I'm not big on this last move. It seems fairly aji-keshi, as it's kind of helping white to build the moyo he most wants? Can anyone set me straight on this?
I am no fan of invading at M17. Basically what Harlequin said.
Sorry, I meant the followup. I understood why Harlequin said that the invasion was bad, but I wasn't big on the followup, either. Or is this just black's best local option?
About there, yes. All follow-ups will bump around making white stronger. I see no good followup.
Sente move to decrease aji for the O17 stone. If w ignores I will wreck havoc on the other side of his wall. Namely by cutting at K17. After response I may claim territory once and for all with N15 which could possibly make L15 a good cutting point later--depending on what happens--if w tenukis.
You might be cringing at the fact that I'm letting w get this huge wall, but as I stated previously I am still relatively comfortable with the position. So far 8 of w stones will have been used to obtain these walls, where I've used 10 stones to claim both sides of this area and also to capturing a group. My stones are facing sides while his stones are facing each other. My left side cannot be reduced (the corner can be taken of course, but that is not reduction because it has not been claimed yet) and it would be harder to reduce the right side without giving me a comfortable position to reduce w's area equally. In addition, it will be difficult to invade my lower left side now.
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . O . . . O . X O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . O . . . O . X O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
W runs out and b gains influence facing w's open-ended territory, making it easier to reduce while attacking the invasion. This is just general strategy idea and most definitely won't play out like so. Point is, w will become quite invested in making sure this stays territory.
(thus it'll end up different), but I'm showing you how the position looks looks similar to one of the standard pincer joseki. The only difference locally is my stone on the 2nd line to the right. Honestly, I'm not sure what w will do with a move like this. Surely the above scenario would be quite disheartening, but letting me eat O17 and make tons of territory, or worse, letting me ruin a lot of potential on the top in sente would not be good at all.
Point is, w will become quite invested in making sure this stays territory.