#243, Violence vs. Loons

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Loons
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's tempting to hane but black doesn't have any real vulnerabilities to aim at, especially compared to white. My database & kogo's agree this is the only move (given 18).

Black's moyo may grow but I will reap the top side of the board.
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Everything is moving along.
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have to pay the debt of making an empty triangle. I'm sure I had bad aji without the game move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 I think there's 'a' flaw there.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 7 8 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Building my house in 'a' lake.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 5 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I commit to this stone, he can either build thickness, or attack the stone more severely. I think I stand to gain more by giving it up lightly.
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tentatively calling that a victory. I'm not sealed in, I got the corner, black's top stones are just kind of hanging out in a reactionary way. Black shouldn't be able to build top or left very well because one will damage the other.

Edit:
Cf.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X 6 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Post by EdLee »

Loons wrote:I have to pay the debt of making an empty triangle.
Not necessarily: this is only true if the empty triangle is bad,
which is not always the case.
Loons used "an" instead of "the" which may or may not mean he thinks all (or most) empty triangles are not good.
I dunno if this particular one is good or bad, but it seems reasonable.
It hits the vital point of B's shape, the elephant's eye.
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@Violence:
How many moves do you think that you would need on the left side to seal it so that any invasion dies?
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by emerus »

@Loons

Any plans for the left framework? How much of that are you considering black's territory?
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Violence »

@Joaz

I dunno, I'm not considering every possible invasion. I'm just trying to make it big without taking too much risk.

I feel like a lot of people overthink these things. Do I add another move to the framework right now? Probably not, right? So then why should I think about where to add a move?
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Loons »

@emerus
It's a little big, isn't it. Black took gote twice on the left (and top, I guess), so I would expect black to have about ten more points than me there. Seems plausible, give or take.

I was thinking of the reduction of 1, because of the lettered sequence. Relatedly I was thinking of double approaching around 'x' if black pincers me on the right, though that seems too desperate.

I'm going to try and see what I can make on the right. Perhaps my own kobayashi. Not 100% on pincer joseki yet.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . x . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . h . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . g d f . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . e a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . B . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 8 , . . . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . 9 . 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My feeling is to approach from the top, to keep Black separated there. I prefer the high approach as being lighter if Black strengthen his group with :b25: and :b27:.
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Post by EdLee »

Possible continuation from Bill's last variation ?
After :w5: maybe W has something around the fuzzy area, or (a) direction ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O X 4 3 . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . ? ? ? . . 5 . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Loons »

I must admit I'm a little nervous, but I really can't find fault with any of my moves so far. On further reflection, considering how strong white is everywhere I think just living inside the left seems possible, possibly even correct later. I dislike it because I'll lose points and weaken my top corner by doing so.
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Violence »

This one's tricky. I should have a move by tonight or tomorrow.
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Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons

Post by Loons »

That's cool.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess 'a' and 'b' are sort of miai.
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