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Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:56 pm
by moyoaji
hailthorn011 wrote: Looks like it's time to fight.
Since black doesn't have the ladder, it'll be a very short fight...
$$Wcm1 Ladder is good for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Ladder is good for white.
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:08 pm
by skydyr
This move was my first instinct, apart from the empty triangle, but I felt that it's problematic for black without the ladder:
$$Bc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BcI don't think that a move in the vicinity of either of the marked points is compensation enough for white's good shape in what was black's area of influence. Not taking one of them, however, seems even worse for black. If black extends to :w4 instead of cutting, white will connect and break black's shape. Then black's corner will give away enough sente moves for white that white will have no trouble living, or black will have to sacrifice the corner altogether. Either seems dubious.
I'd rather have been able to take the point of
in the diagram above, but the empty triangle is somewhat awkward. This again leads to the idea of not exchanging the marked stones.
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:48 am
by amatterof
I think Hailthorn is right to expect a fight. Even though the ladder is good for White, the presence of the marked Black stone does mean that Black can secure some territory on the right. (If White plays 5 at 6, a Black play at Q6 would break the ladder, and a very complicated fight would break out.) Although White does get sente, I don't think he can completely eliminate the aji from L4 is one move. Then, there will be a fight between the 3 Black stones and White's newly created bottom-side group.
In other words, one of these two possibilities (and probably the first one):
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:25 am
by tentano
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm9 Captures-
I can come up with three ideas, here.
$$cm9
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm9O7 seems too soon. It will turn into an eyeless mongrel, a target for harassment.
P4 seems to be the quintessential kyu move. Splitting two things which will both not die, while making no eyes.
O5 pushes out a little to the middle, preparing for O7. If black takes O7, there is still a follow-up at N4.
Coming up with three ideas is not that impressive when only one of them is any good, but one out of three ain't bad.
Thinking about top-left, too, but I simply can't abandon the bottom right like this. I really want to extend along the top.
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:45 am
by Uberdude
@tentano
tentano wrote: P4 seems to be the quintessential kyu move. Splitting two things which will both not die, while making no eyes.
What do you expect to happen with your move? What will happen to o3? What would happen with p4 and what would happen to o3 in that case? No detailed reading requested, just 3 moves deep is enough.
@obs
His move is an utter disaster:
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm9 Captures- Black simply extends and secures a large 4th line territory on the bottom and makes L4 strong (so J4 loses a lot of power). p4 might be kyuish in the sense even a kyu should know that you need to split black and link up to o3 or else o3 is just a loss.
amatterof suggests l3 attachment after the ladder, but that feels bad to me, attaching to a weak stone, I prefer to jump and attack large scale if possible:
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1Or if that ponnuki group is weak rather than thick can we just capture l4? Depends what there is at
a .
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:07 am
by tentano
@Uberdude
$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WcThe problem with these forecasts, of course, is that they can be completely wrong beyond the first move.
I'm really starting to wonder if O3 isn't simply a mistake.
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:12 pm
by Uberdude
@tentano
@Obs
My guess is tentano thinks the first one is good for black, and is scared of his ponnuki being a false eye and dying, but actually black is being absurd and overplaying and it's awesome for white. The key point is white has connected to o3, which means black's corner is surrounded, and by pressuring it white can easily secure his group. In fact black can die in the corner if he is not careful.
$$Wc Attacking tanks with tennis balls rarely works
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Attacking tanks with tennis balls rarely worksWhite can make black live small in gote, getting useful stones on the outside in the process, and then move out and split black at
a , or simply skip to
b (weak IMO). There is the cut of e-i to come soon too, those 2 black stones are weak and short of liberties plastered next to white's ponnuki tank.
tentano's 2nd diagram is even worse for black, white 5 should be the descent like above and black's corner is dead.
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:16 pm
by hailthorn011
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm9 Captures-
I'm kinda surprised
didn't go for the ladder as I totally misread this entire area. Now I simply extend and I'll be able to connect at P3.
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:29 pm
by moyoaji
tentano, listen to Kageyama Toshiro 7-dan:
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:08 am
by Bill Spight
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:10 am
by Bill Spight
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:01 pm
by EdLee
$$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$tentano wrote: (a) seems to be the quintessential kyu move.
tentano wrote: The problem with these forecasts, of course, is that they can be completely wrong beyond the first move.
(b) is an utter disaster
White's play is a study in what not to do.
Hi tentano,
Hmm,
(a) is the only move here, but you discarded it as bad. (This is not so good.)
At the same time, you also consider your own analysis could be wrong even past 1 move. (This is better.)
From my experience, and I know of at least two other friends -- all around the range (SDK...1dan) in Go --
at some point, we all had the same epiphany: "I don't know anything!" (in this case, about Go.)
It's a brilliant feeling. It frees you greatly.
This moment is not so easy to come by, from my experience (in Go, and in a few other areas).
For one of the friends mentioned above, he had been taking pro lessons for about 1 year before he had the moment. (He was about 2k-1k level before he started pro lessons.)
For me, in Go, it happened a little sooner.
For me, in another field, this eureka moment happened not just once, but many times, over the course of many years.
My most recent "I don't know anything" moment (in this other field) happened after 25 years of study.
I hope at some point, you also experience this moment.
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:00 am
by tentano
Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn
Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:04 am
by tentano
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 Captures-
Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:09 am
by EdLee
Hi tentano, a glimpse of the hidden treasures awaiting you:
tentano wrote: In the first diagram, I think white is forced to live miserably while squeezed between the corner and a black wall which projects influence everywhere.
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WAnother view:
actually black is being absurd and overplaying and it's awesome for white.
tentano wrote: In the second, I think white will end up eyeless, fleeing up, while black gets to consolidate a lot of territory.
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WAnother view:
tentano's 2nd diagram is even worse for black
tentano wrote: In the third, I think white will shut off some of black and project influence to the center.
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WAnother view:
.
is an utter disaster
in the diagram above, but the empty triangle is somewhat awkward. This again leads to the idea of not exchanging the marked stones.
is an utter disaster