Life In 19x19

Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://lifein19x19.com/

Tewari analysis

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11863

Page 3 of 4

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:02 am
by Pippen
Cassandra wrote:Why do you want to approach thickness ?
To reduce the strong influence and to stabilize the upper white side. If Black plays at 8 it is territoy and a double wing structure. That is huge so early in the game. But I could be wrong, I am not such a strong player.

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:06 am
by John Fairbairn
You can be pedantic and insist that this is only about 'joseki' (although I think you must have to close your eyes for some of Kobayashi's diagrams in order to maintain your theory).
I can understand the "PARIS IN THE THE SPRING" kind of misread, but for the life of me I cannot understand the high frequency of misreads in this forum. Is it wilful?

I said "mainly joseki", Cassandra said "mainly", yet you change it to "only" joseki. On top of that, the Kobayashi quoted is also mainly about joseki, as observed by Cassandra, and that is implicit in Kobayashi's words cited ("Tewari plays a role ALSO in fuseki", i.e. joseki gets the main mention).

But this problem is widespread. I have no doubt I do it myself.

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:27 am
by Cassandra
Pippen wrote:
Cassandra wrote:Why do you want to approach thickness ?
To reduce the strong influence and to stabilize the upper white side. If Black plays at 8 it is territoy and a double wing structure. That is huge so early in the game. But I could be wrong, I am not such a strong player.
I think that I am weaker than you, but I would like to suppose that there are bigger points on the board than White / Black 8.

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:32 am
by illluck
John Fairbairn wrote:
You can be pedantic and insist that this is only about 'joseki' (although I think you must have to close your eyes for some of Kobayashi's diagrams in order to maintain your theory).
I can understand the "PARIS IN THE THE SPRING" kind of misread, but for the life of me I cannot understand the high frequency of misreads in this forum. Is it wilful?

I said "mainly joseki", Cassandra said "mainly", yet you change it to "only" joseki. On top of that, the Kobayashi quoted is also mainly about joseki, as observed by Cassandra, and that is implicit in Kobayashi's words cited ("Tewari plays a role ALSO in fuseki", i.e. joseki gets the main mention).

But this problem is widespread. I have no doubt I do it myself.
To be fair, the way you made that statement made it appear as you think it does not apply to fuseki. "That's probably because tewari (dissection of moves, aka ishiwari) is not really intended for fuseki."

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:46 am
by Cassandra
illluck wrote:To be fair, the way you made that statement made it appear as you think it does not apply to fuseki. "That's probably because tewari (dissection of moves, aka ishiwari) is not really intended for fuseki."
Pliers are not really intended for driving nails into the wall, but they can be used for this purpose, too.

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:48 am
by Bill Spight
Pippen wrote:@Bill: You are right, my alternation didn't make sense, but why is 8 bad in the re-shuffled board? It stabilizes the upper side for White and limits Black's corner which has become bullstrong with 5.
At this point in the opening, it is small. Compare, for instance, these diagrams.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White approaches the top right
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White approaches the bottom right
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Which do you prefer for White?

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:50 am
by illluck
Cassandra wrote:
illluck wrote:To be fair, the way you made that statement made it appear as you think it does not apply to fuseki. "That's probably because tewari (dissection of moves, aka ishiwari) is not really intended for fuseki."
Pliers are not really intended for driving nails into the wall, but they can be used for this purpose, too.
Do you really think using tewari for fuseki is like driving nails into the wall with a plier?

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:51 am
by Kirby
I think the evidence is pretty clear from ez4u's book image: Kobayashi Satoru says that tewari is also useful in fuseki.

Why don't we leave it at that?

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 11:10 am
by Bill Spight
Cassandra wrote:
illluck wrote:To be fair, the way you made that statement made it appear as you think it does not apply to fuseki. "That's probably because tewari (dissection of moves, aka ishiwari) is not really intended for fuseki."
Pliers are not really intended for driving nails into the wall, but they can be used for this purpose, too.
I think a better analogy is something like this: "You can use a lens in a microscope, but it was really intended for use in a telescope."

Tewari is used to examine the efficiency of moves in a sequence. Whether it is applied to joseki or fuseki, it is the same kind of tool in either case.

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 11:15 am
by Cassandra
-- Tewari is a tool for analysing the relative efficiency of moves.
-- Its methodology is optimised for the usage in Jôseki.

This does not imply that it is excluded to find single use cases outside the field of Jôseki.

+ + + + + + + +

However, the less restricted its field of observation the larger the danger of widening the original methodology (imperceptibly, with the best of intentions).

This is my motivation to suggest finding / using another technical term, if one wants to have an efficiency-measurement-tool that has its main focus in the later stages of the game.

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 1:15 pm
by Pippen
Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White approaches the top right
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White approaches the bottom right
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Which do you prefer for White?
Of course the first one, in the second White looks worse or at least not better. Because there White is thin everywhere, while Black has a bullstrong corner with a double wing. Let's see what some really strong players (4d+ KGS, 8d+ Tygem) would prefer. Maybe someone can check Zen or CS for that.

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 1:45 pm
by SoDesuNe
This reminds me of Graded Go Problems for Beginners volume 1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Problem 117. Who has the advantage?
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . 7 . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . , . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
; )

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 3:55 pm
by Sennahoj
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Pippen do you really think that the area around a is the biggest on the board? To me the lower side is clearly bigger, because it is widest. For black, playing around a will be overconcentrated (and therefor it is small for white as well).

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 3:58 pm
by topazg
Pippen wrote:Of course the first one, in the second White looks worse or at least not better. Because there White is thin everywhere, while Black has a bullstrong corner with a double wing. Let's see what some really strong players (4d+ KGS, 8d+ Tygem) would prefer. Maybe someone can check Zen or CS for that.
.... Bill is comfortably KGS 4d+....

Re: Tewari analysis

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 4:13 pm
by Bill Spight
Pippen wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White approaches the top right
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White approaches the bottom right
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Which do you prefer for White?
Of course the first one, in the second White looks worse or at least not better. Because there White is thin everywhere, while Black has a bullstrong corner with a double wing. Let's see what some really strong players (4d+ KGS, 8d+ Tygem) would prefer. Maybe someone can check Zen or CS for that.
You need to develop your own judgement. Why rely upon authority? :)
All times are UTC-07:00
Page 3 of 4

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited