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Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:50 am
by Knotwilg
General remark:

You diligently play games and post them for review, but I'm still missing something in your "deliberate practice": what is it you are deliberately practicing?

When I'm reading a lament like
I'm not sure exactly why, but I simply wasn't in the right mindset to play in game 42. Despite reasonable time limits, I played as though it were a blitz game, not bothering to read at all, and barely using any of my time. Even though it remained close, eventually I made enough errors that I needed to resign.

I'm getting the impression that you've lost track. You mention a couple of issues here which I have discussed at my Sensei's blog:
- play games with the right attitude
- don't resign out of emotion but because the game is truly lost
- manage your time

Most importantly, these are things you can practice and in my opinion should be practiced before practicing anything else. This will train your mind to play all future games with the right attitude, make time management a second nature and save you from emotional measures like resigning out of disappointment with yourself.

This is of course my opinion and you can choose to practice whatever you want in whichever order, but right now I'm under the impression you are not really deliberately practicing anything at all.

Incidentally, game 41 contained an interesting notion of "thickness". Moves 64 through 72.

Cheers



Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:44 am
by studying
@Loons: Yes, you've posted the most common joseki in response to White's attachment. Recently, I've been playing the joseki you saw in the game because it felt like a nearly identical shape, except that White's corner is slightly smaller. Either way, my struggle is always how to deal with the left side after White plays out this sequence. It ends up feeling to me like sanrensei, except that White also has the corner territory.

@Knotwilg: Thanks again for the comments. My goal with deliberate practice had been to change how I respond to my games (especially losses). Previously, I had simply dismissed them, or quickly hit the button to start another game to try to redeem myself. Now, with the review, I'm at least trying to learn a bit more about why I lost, in order to (hopefully) avoid repeating mistakes.

There is a separate aspect that you rightly highlight, which is the self-discipline aspect of playing deliberately as opposed to instinctively. There is probably some confirmation bias going on here, but I do think that the reviews are also assisting with that. In reviewing the game, I have the chance to experiment with some additional lines of play, and (with the exception of Game 42), I'd like to think that this is translating into more deliberate play and reading during games as well. Before this project, I think I played many more games like Game 42, but now they thankfully seem more rare.

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:25 pm
by Loons
@Studying

The difference being the push through and cut big, bad ko aji v the less crazy common invasion point at C6, right? Takao's joseki dictionary vol 2 covers this pretty well.

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:14 pm
by Knotwilg
studying wrote:My goal with deliberate practice had been to change how I respond to my games (especially losses). Previously, I had simply dismissed them, or quickly hit the button to start another game to try to redeem myself. Now, with the review, I'm at least trying to learn a bit more about why I lost, in order to (hopefully) avoid repeating mistakes. (...) Before this project, I think I played many more games like Game 42, but now they thankfully seem more rare.


So you're practicing the rhythm of playing decent games. All right. That's good progress then. Your project is interesting to watch. Do well!

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:21 pm
by studying
Game 44
I hadn't had a chance to play any go in the last two weeks, since I was preoccupied with moving to a new house. Now that things are settled down a bit, I was happy to have the chance to play another game.

This was a no-komi game against an IGS 4d+. I made a few misreads/blunders, but was pretty happy with how I developed and defended the moyo. Here's the review:
https://gokibitz.com/kifu/Vkxj_zL9

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:03 am
by studying
Game 45
I played another game on Tygem today, and was reasonably happy with my play. My opponent played moves that could have easily derailed me into another garbage game, but I was able to keep calm and play deliberate moves. That said, I felt I got lucky in the main fight. Here is the review: https://gokibitz.com/kifu/VyeCyXDq

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:40 am
by SoDesuNe
Some low-level-kibitz ; )


Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:23 am
by Knotwilg
Overall, good decision making it seems, good time management and according choices of moves (cautious or daring). Perhaps a little too eager to fight, first on the left, then in the centre. Interesting question around :w28:. Great counter at :w38: - would never have thought of that.


Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:17 am
by ez4u
The direction of 20 ('a' below) feels wrong to me. What if White plays :w1:, making territory at the top? Black is too thin at the top to cap at 3 with 2. So if :b2:, then :w3:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . 1 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . O . 3 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When White plays :w1: below (22 in the game), I would have an irresistible urge as Black to turn at :b2: even if I lost some stones. White's four stones end up suffering from a shortage of liberties and meanwhile the gaps at 'a' and 'b' mean that Black will pick up the marked stone. If White can't push immediately at 2 with 22, then I think the simple hanging connection is necessary here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a O O b W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 9 6 8 X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 7 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O O O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:35 am
by Knotwilg
ez4u wrote:The direction of 20 ('a' below) feels wrong to me. What if White plays :w1:, making territory at the top? Black is too thin at the top to cap at 3 with 2. So if :b2:, then :w3:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . 1 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . O . 3 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When White plays :w1: below (22 in the game), I would have an irresistible urge as Black to turn at :b2: even if I lost some stones. White's four stones end up suffering from a shortage of liberties and meanwhile the gaps at 'a' and 'b' mean that Black will pick up the marked stone. If White can't push immediately at 2 with 22, then I think the simple hanging connection is necessary here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a O O b W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 9 6 8 X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 7 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O O O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Concerning the first suggestion, I agree White's turn is thin but I'd tenuki for the right or bottom. I don't think the development at the top is urgent or big. White's head is already sticking out.

About the second one, I had the same urge but felt uncomfortable with the sacrifice. Still it looks more than playable in your diagram.

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:03 am
by SoDesuNe
Hm, interesting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I don't think :w1: is a natural extension because it has no connection to White's corner stone. If at 'a', I could see the connection (pincering an approach move by Black) but then it would be a lukewarm extension not really countering Black's wide Shimari. I guess, you can even make a point that with such a wide Shimari the extension loses value because you have considerable less strength to back it up - though, that's probably above my head (or wrong?) ; )

For me, this just denies Black a good extension but the prospects for a good White development look slim - meaning, this move has no good follow-up in my opinion. If White takes his Shimari then :w1: ends on the wrong side. If White plays something like Keima from the 3-4-stone, then there is a lot of room for Black to enter.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If we imagine that play goes like this, then I guess I erred on saying the top and the left are Miai since now the right side seems more important for both. Now :w1: is a natural extension, countering Black's Shimari. But after this I find it quite complicated to say which moves are now biggest. 'a' or 'b'? And what about the bottom?

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:10 am
by skydyr
Incidentally, in game 44, you are aware that instead of move 152, white could play at the 1-2 point and force ko for life, since black played the ill-advised D18 exchange?

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:44 pm
by studying
Game 46
I haven't been able to play go for about the last 2 months due to various other obligations. (It turns out that planning a wedding takes a lot of time!) Looking back at what I missed, I'm really grateful for everyone's helpful comments on my last few games, they're really insightful and I plan to give them more careful study in the coming days.

However, tonight I wanted to dive back into getting the rust cleaned up off my game. I decided to try my luck on KGS, even though the rating system there tends to stress me out. On servers like IGS and Tygem, I can more easily convince myself to shake off a loss because a win balances things out pretty well. On KGS, the ranks seem to get sticky so quickly that any loss feels like a bigger deal because I know it will take several wins to put me back on the upward trajectory that I think most go players want to be on.

In any case, here is tonight's game. I felt I played reasonably well, although I can tell I'm still not back completely to where I was over the summer: https://gokibitz.com/kifu/Ekdftmlyx

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:15 pm
by skydyr
studying wrote:I haven't been able to play go for about the last 2 months due to various other obligations. (It turns out that planning a wedding takes a lot of time!) Looking back at what I missed, I'm really grateful for everyone's helpful comments on my last few games, they're really insightful and I plan to give them more careful study in the coming days.

However, tonight I wanted to dive back into getting the rust cleaned up off my game. I decided to try my luck on KGS, even though the rating system there tends to stress me out. On servers like IGS and Tygem, I can more easily convince myself to shake off a loss because a win balances things out pretty well. On KGS, the ranks seem to get sticky so quickly that any loss feels like a bigger deal because I know it will take several wins to put me back on the upward trajectory that I think most go players want to be on.

In any case, here is tonight's game. I felt I played reasonably well, although I can tell I'm still not back completely to where I was over the summer: https://gokibitz.com/kifu/Ekdftmlyx


Some thoughts:
Move 21: Seems fine to me. Black's looking for a submissive response, since there's still a lot of aji.
Move 27: Very slow on black's part. His group already has the extension down the side and is safe. Black should cause trouble for white with the stone he used to invade.
Move 30: I like the pincer, personally. You can block to build prospects on the left instead, you know, and still have a decently strong position on top.
Move 32: I'm not sure I like this variation. Perhaps a looser pincer is better, though the corner is good too.
Move 50: Seems a bit deep. :b51: is indeed submissive.
Move 55: Without looking too deeply, this seems like the right direction, though maybe the one-space jump is better.
Move 73: Seems fine. 83 should just be a descent.
Move 91: Weird timing and wrong direction. Black needs to help his group on the left more if he means to save them, and really should respond to the hane. Trying to save this stone later too was a mistake

Re: Deliberate Practice

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:37 pm
by studying
Game 47
I played another game on KGS today. Still not my best play, and I think there was a critical error ( :w38: ) that my opponent fortunately failed to capitalize on. That said, this game turned into a pretty intense reading battle, and I feel like those skills are coming back more. And, I'm enjoying experimenting with this opening for the time being, even if it's a bit different from what I would usually play.

@skydyr: Thanks for the comments on Game 46. I think I generally agree with your analysis of Black's play. I want to think a bit more about your proposal to pincer and build thickness along the left after :w30:.

Here is game 47: https://gokibitz.com/kifu/VJFwMrbkg