Life In 19x19

daal wrote:I'm not forcing anybody to do anything, so I hope you don't consider me rude for stating how a specific behavior makes me feel.

I addressed a little the issue of "forcing" in the post to Dr.Straw. Let me know if you need more explanation.

As for how you feel - this is normal, and you are certainly feel however you like, and express it too.
If that was all - I would have no problems. I actually share your feelings, mostly.

But then you start calling people "jerks" - and that changes the dialogue.

daal wrote:One of the functions of (good) manners is to smooth social interactions. A tense game in which tempers can flare is a good example of a situation in which manners can have an influence. You can quibble all you want about what exactly constitutes good or bad manners, but wordlessly leaving a game doesn't leave that much room for interpretation.

I understand your point, but I simply disagree with you in the evaluation.
I think that saying "tx" makes for every bit as "smooth" interaction (or even smoother, although maybe less pleasurable for both uf us) as saying "Thank you for good game, sir, Have a nice day."

The same goes for just leaving. Why do you think you deserve any "thanks" for losing a game? I mean - it would be nice to get a "thank you" - I fully agree - but I don't think its a crime to skip it. Maybe the other guy felt offended because he felt you did not offer him a good enough game, you did not try hard enough? Who is to say? What if he though of you as "jerk" for that, and somebody who does not deserve a nice "Thank you"?

Anyways, you have all the right to feel upset at whatever you want for whatever you want.
But the fact that you are upset does not necessarily make the other guy a "jerk."

--------
PS>
As an example from my own attitude adjustment struggles:

Do you think it would be right for me to think everybody who uses the words "kifu" or "moku" are jerks? I honestly dislike those words and each time they are used. I used to have the same attitude you do - I though of people who use them as pompous donkeys trying to show off just to make themselves feel more important and knowledgeable then they really are - basically, overcompensating for low intelligence and possibly bad acne.

Then I thought about it - for a long while - and I realized it was actually my problem, not theirs. And so it was up to me to adjust my attitude.

I am still working on that.
And I still hate the words, each time I see them used I cringe!
But I try not to think badly of the people who use them anymore.

Hope this helps.

Please point out the exact post in which I used the word jerk. That is not actually a word in my speaking vocabulary as I consider it to be a demeaning word which has no use in polite interaction.

DrStraw wrote:Please point out the exact post in which I used the word jerk. That is not actually a word in my speaking vocabulary as I consider it to be a demeaning word which has no use in polite interaction.

This is why I said OP (which means "Original Poster".)
Please observe that it is to his words that I object, not to yours.

To you, I only try to explain my position vs. what the OP (which means "Original Poster") said.

What's more - I agree with you, and I said so, that if you wish to ignore or avoid people who say "gg" - its your choice and I have absolutely no quarrel with that.

Not sure how I can make it any clearer, but if you PM me, I can try.

calantir wrote:On the other hand, if they follow up a victory with "LOL EZ," all bets are off.

Admins would take an interest in that case.

Note that I have told a few (a very small few) users on KGS that, if they can't be polite at the end of the game, it's best if they don't say anything. That's a suboptimal solution, I know.

Bantari wrote:

Bonobo wrote:AFAIK it’s usually used in a derogatory manner, like calling somebody a “sissy” or something, meaning that the person is (alleged to be) overly sensitive.

Oh, really? Is that British?

Definitely not British usage. Partly because we have neither the plant, nor that word for the drink (it's more commonly called "Buck's Fizz" here), and partly because our derogatory terms are much harsher.

Bantari wrote:
The problem I have is with calling people "jerks" - just because they do something you find less than fully pleasing.
If you dislike smoking - avoid smokers, no problem. But this does not mean all smokers are "jerks".
If you dislike people saying "gg" - avoid them as well. But this does not mean they are all "jerks".
Yet this is specifically what the OP stipulated, and the major point of my contention.

When you talk about your experience - as I did - and order it from more pleasurable to less pleasurable - this is your prerogative, and perfectly natural.
However - when you start calling people "jerks" just because they don't fully please you - then you are in danger of moving into this category yourself, in my eyes.

I hope this makes it more clear.

You are right, and indeed my first post was a great example of me losing my temper and behaving like a jerk. That's how these things escalate. All the more reason to emphasize good manners in tense situations.

Bantari wrote:I think that saying "tx" makes for every bit as "smooth" interaction (or even smoother, although maybe less pleasurable for both uf us) as saying "Thank you for good game, sir, Have a nice day."

The same goes for just leaving. Why do you think you deserve any "thanks" for losing a game? I mean - it would be nice to get a "thank you" - I fully agree - but I don't think its a crime to skip it. Maybe the other guy felt offended because he felt you did not offer him a good enough game, you did not try hard enough? Who is to say? What if he though of you as "jerk" for that, and somebody who does not deserve a nice "Thank you"?

Anyways, you have all the right to feel upset at whatever you want for whatever you want.
But the fact that you are upset does not necessarily make the other guy a "jerk."

I don't expect being thanked for losing, I expect being thanked for providing my opponent with an opponent, and in the case that I lost, for having spent my time doing something with him or her that did not turn out the way I had hoped. By not thanking me, by acting against the social norm, my opponent is adding insult to injury, and I personally don't find that easy to ignore. You are again right that this does not necessarily make my opponent a jerk, but if we assume that they are aware of the social norm, speak English and nonetheless still decide that I ought not be thanked for my troubles, acting like a jerk seems like a plausible explanation, no?

Bantari wrote:PS>
As an example from my own attitude adjustment struggles:

Do you think it would be right for me to think everybody who uses the words "kifu" or "moku" are jerks? I honestly dislike those words and each time they are used. I used to have the same attitude you do - I though of people who use them as pompous donkeys trying to show off just to make themselves feel more important and knowledgeable then they really are - basically, overcompensating for low intelligence and possibly bad acne.

Then I thought about it - for a long while - and I realized it was actually my problem, not theirs. And so it was up to me to adjust my attitude.

I am still working on that.
And I still hate the words, each time I see them used I cringe!
But I try not to think badly of the people who use them anymore.

Good for you! If I understand you correctly, you feel I ought to make an attitude adjustment myself. While this may be the case (it would certainly make such thankless situations more pleasant for me) But are the problems really just yours and mine and not theirs? Is there no cause to desire a correction of poor behavior? I have seen many a go discussion revolving around the misuse of non-English go terms, and I would like to think that some people have indeed recognized through such discussions that their usage of some terms was inappropriate. Just because someone misuses terms does not make them pompous - maybe they were simply repeating what they had been erroneously taught. Likewise, while my being offended is my problem, this does not preclude the hope that some people will try to behave in a way that appears less offensive. Is this exerting social pressure? Sure. And in the case of those who are not aware that wordless games can be perceived as offensive, I hope that they will start saying hi gg tx like the rest of us. That should make it easier for people like me to avoid those who actually want to behave like jerks.

joellercoaster wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Bonobo wrote:AFAIK it’s usually used in a derogatory manner, like calling somebody a “sissy” or something, meaning that the person is (alleged to be) overly sensitive.

Oh, really? Is that British?

Definitely not British usage. Partly because we have neither the plant, nor that word for the drink (it's more commonly called "Buck's Fizz" here), and partly because our derogatory terms are much harsher.

We I certainly heard it plenty when growing up in Britain. Maybe it is now used by the younger generation.

joellercoaster wrote:Definitely not British usage. Partly because we have neither the plant, nor that word for the drink (it's more commonly called "Buck's Fizz" here), and partly because our derogatory terms are much harsher.

Okay, I'll be pedantic. Buck's Fizz contains two parts juice to one part Champagne, versus the equal measures in a mimosa.

We learn something new every day. In my case, I learned there is a sensitive plant called a mimosa, and that it is a British derogatory term even if it is little known in contemporary Britain.

A quick question for daal (and others).

How would you feel about a go server that required a positive comment at the end of a game? Maybe enforced by losing a few elo points if you didn't comply?

Would that reduce jerkism in your eyes or would it be a heavy-handed silly "feature" that offends more than it helps?

I mentioned it a bit earlier, but I'm not bothered when people leave without saying anything.

Perhaps the reason I come to a different conclusion than daal is in the following:

daal wrote:By not thanking me, by acting against the social norm, my opponent is adding insult to injury, and I personally don't find that easy to ignore. You are again right that this does not necessarily make my opponent a jerk, but if we assume that they are aware of the social norm, speak English and nonetheless still decide that I ought not be thanked for my troubles, acting like a jerk seems like a plausible explanation, no?

Assuming that saying thanks is the social norm, and it's rude not to follow this social norm, then I agree with daal's argument.

But for me:
1.) It's not clear to me that saying anything at the end of the game is a social norm. There's nothing in the KGS interface that suggests this, and the only reason to assume users should do this is if you already have that expectation.

2.) I don't have that expectation. To me, the "game" is composed of the moves. The chat that people add is a nice extra, but is not a part of the game.

And perhaps the biggest:
3.) For something this trivial, I prefer to NOT have a social norm of saying thanks at the end of the game. If it's an expectation, then the sincerity becomes lost. The CGoban client might as well automatically output the text, "thanks" at the end of the game. When something is NOT the social norm, then I'm talking to a real person - not some social convention.

DrStraw wrote:We I certainly heard it plenty when growing up in Britain. Maybe it is now used by the younger generation.

That's really interesting... I've never heard it. Admittedly I (in turn) grew up in Australia, but I've been here quite a long time.

Linguistic drift indeed! I take back my earlier remarks. And I wonder about wartime language exchange, and many other things.

wineandgolover wrote:A quick question for daal (and others).

How would you feel about a go server that required a positive comment at the end of a game? Maybe enforced by losing a few elo points if you didn't comply?

Would that reduce jerkism in your eyes or would it be a heavy-handed silly "feature" that offends more than it helps?

I'd much prefer a server where everyone can say whatever they want. As long as I have the option to censor people and as long as there's some spam protection in place... I have no trouble with the openly frustrated (nor the cheerfully obscene). Maybe because I prefer honesty to ritualized formality. Your suggestion just sounds like some form of repressed sadism.

When people enjoy the freedom to act like idiots but choose to be nice, that's more satisfying to me than when people are afraid of some speech-policing admin and just play nice.

Kirby wrote:I mentioned it a bit earlier, but I'm not bothered when people leave without saying anything.

Perhaps the reason I come to a different conclusion than daal is in the following:

daal wrote:By not thanking me, by acting against the social norm, my opponent is adding insult to injury, and I personally don't find that easy to ignore. You are again right that this does not necessarily make my opponent a jerk, but if we assume that they are aware of the social norm, speak English and nonetheless still decide that I ought not be thanked for my troubles, acting like a jerk seems like a plausible explanation, no?

Assuming that saying thanks is the social norm, and it's rude not to follow this social norm, then I agree with daal's argument.

But for me:
1.) It's not clear to me that saying anything at the end of the game is a social norm. There's nothing in the KGS interface that suggests this, and the only reason to assume users should do this is if you already have that expectation.

Is it stipulated anywhere that salespeople in the U.S say "have a nice day" when you leave their shop? It is not necessary for a rule to be explicitly stated for it to be the norm. It is the norm because it is what most people do.

Kirby wrote:2.) I don't have that expectation. To me, the "game" is composed of the moves. The chat that people add is a nice extra, but is not a part of the game.

I agree that the chat is not part of the game, but it is part of the interaction that takes place when people play a game. That chat window right next to the game board is kind of hard not to notice.

Kirby wrote:And perhaps the biggest: 3.) For something this trivial, I prefer to NOT have a social norm of saying thanks at the end of the game. If it's an expectation, then the sincerity becomes lost. The CGoban client might as well automatically output the text, "thanks" at the end of the game. When something is NOT the social norm, then I'm talking to a real person - not some social convention.

As you see, my point is that greeting and thanking is in fact already a social norm, and by not following it, one is in fact making an explicit statement which amounts to I do not want to greet you, and I do not want to thank you for the game. The fact that uttering these sentiments is a social norm in no way prohibits one from expressing one's actual sentiments. For example: Thanks, that was an interesting game!

I didn't know we decide on social behavior on the internet over here.

Shall we conclude on behavior in traffic too, while we're at it?

I used to play Go on KGS/OGS from bed using my wireless mouse, and my wireless keyboard would often remain on my desk. I could open the Windows accessibility on-screen keyboard if I needed to type, but often didn't in which case I wouldn't say hi or thanks. And there's a local player who plays a lot of blitz on KGS who never types greetings, he sees it as pointless and a waste of time, he's there to play (quick) go.