Life In 19x19

Thank you Life. That's a good read.
But I don't think shell stones are made from this species. But perhaps the same applies.

sybob wrote:Thank you Life. That's a good read.
But I don't think shell stones are made from this species. But perhaps the same applies.

Here is a reference at Sensei's as well, stating the same concern:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?Goishi

While I was researching, I found this store:

http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~goban/engli ... rsion.html

They only have a page up there, and require an order to be placed by e-mail.

I've only found one reference to this shop in this forum. Anybody know it and/or has experience with it?

If I should decide to get shell and slate stones, I could get Moon grade stones there, for the same price as I'd pay for Jitsuyo grade in Europe, even when including taxes, and assume that shipping is comparable to other stores sending with EMS, such as Mr. Kuroki. When getting Sakura or Zelkova bowls there, the price will be at least €100 LESS than European prices, even including shipping and taxes.

I've almost decided everything.

Board: Shin Kaya +/- 6cm, Alaska Cedar, bought in Europe. (I have actually already ordered it, and it has shipped. Even a cheaper 3cm Kaya board at the above store is out of the question; the size and weight raises the shipping price into the €160+ region, and I've decided that I'm not willing to pay that much.)

Bowls: Dark ash wood, or reddish cherrywood

Stones: Japanese glass stones from Europe, Jitsuyo stones from Europe, or Moon stones from the above site if the e-mail reaction is prompt and I decide to take a gamble.

If I get glass stones to go with the shin kaya board, I'll keep the ash bowls for them. If I get shell and slate stones, I'll order cherry bowls along with them, and the ash bowls will replace the plastic containers in my current cheap set. That set has a 1.5cm beech board, which would be out of place with the ash bowls. Maybe I'll replace that board with a 2-3cm shin kaya board at some point.

PS: The e-mail address of the above store is caro-kann@kzf.biglobe.ne.jp. I don't know why, but I find it particularly funny that a store, which is a Go shop first, a Shogi shop second, has an e-mail address named after a western chess opening

PS2: Tomorrow, it's three weeks after I sent the first e-mail to Mr. Kuroki using their direct address, and almost 2 weeks after I sent the second using their web form. I have not received a reaction on either. The chance of him getting an order for a set of stones is becoming quite slim.

Yes, there are already a few threads about that shop, in fact I will be dropping by today and picking something up for a friend. The owner is second generation of a family business and sources items from all over Japan, including (my suspicion) from KGT itself. I have never ordered via mail, but in person several times. I also have some equipment from over 30 years prior, before Yoshiaki-san took over the family business.

Babelardus wrote: PS2: Tomorrow, it's three weeks after I sent the first e-mail to Mr. Kuroki using their direct address, and almost 2 weeks after I sent the second using their web form. I have not received a reaction on either. The chance of him getting an order for a set of stones is becoming quite slim.

I don't know if it will work, but they also have a Facebook account. You might try contacting them through that.
https://www.facebook.com/kurokigoishiten/timeline

LifeIn9x9 wrote:Yes, there are already a few threads about that shop, in fact I will be dropping by today and picking something up for a friend. The owner is second generation of a family business and sources items from all over Japan, including (my suspicion) from KGT itself. I have never ordered via mail, but in person several times. I also have some equipment from over 30 years prior, before Yoshiaki-san took over the family business.

Thanks. It's good to know the store already exists for such a long time. I've sent an e-mail to them, asking what the chipment costs for a set of stones and bowls would be.

Go_Japan wrote: I don't know if it will work, but they also have a Facebook account. You might try contacting them through that.
https://www.facebook.com/kurokigoishiten/timeline

I've just received an answer from Kurokigoishiten after exactly three weeks.

It is a bit puzzling. What I asked was: "If I buy set X, can I replace the chestnut bowls with cherry bowls, and keep the set discount?" (This would actually raise the price of the set by about 6000 yen, because the cherry bowls are more expensive.)

The answer is:
"In your situation, we we will make a set. Normally we do not give discounts on sets, but in your case, we will make an exception."

Well... that's confusing. Maybe they mean that they don't provide discounts for self-built sets; however, the cherry bowls do have a discount, but in a different set.

The point is almost moot now anyway. I've already ordered the board in Europe because of the prohibitive shipment/import/tax costs (in The Netherlands, one pays import duties and taxes *on top of the shipment costs*, as they are considered part of the value of the product), so I can't build a set anymore.

The Aoyama shop I mentioned above is also much less expensive than Mr. Kuroki with regard to stones.

Kuroki Blossom grade 32 compared to Aoyama Moon grade 32, which for both companies is the middle grade, is 50.000 yen to 33.000 yen. After including import and taxes, the price difference is €175. while I don't need to make a decision based on a few euro's of price difference, this is a considerable amount.

I'll await the mail from the Aoyama shop. Hopefully it won't take three weeks

I'm coming in a little late to this thread, but thought I'd add a little comment.

"In your situation, we we will make a set. Normally we do not give discounts on sets, but in your case, we will make an exception."

I believe what they're saying is that

1. They normally don't give discounts in mix and match sets.
2. They'll let you have the cherry bowls in lieu of the chestnut (in the set you wanted) for the same price.

In other words, "yes" to your inquiry.

I suspect Aoyama's stones are primarily from Mr. Kuroki and are of an older stock which is why the price hasn't risen. There's only two or three manufactures left in Japan, and from what I understand they're all in Hyuga City. I've spoken with a few people who've ordered from them and they've been quite happy with their purchases.

Erythen wrote:
I suspect Aoyama's stones are primarily from Mr. Kuroki and are of an older stock which is why the price hasn't risen. There's only two or three manufactures left in Japan, and from what I understand they're all in Hyuga City. I've spoken with a few people who've ordered from them and they've been quite happy with their purchases.

I am not sure that they are actually from Kuroki. I have a set of Tsuki stones I bought from another vendor and I doubt that they came from him. They are nice stones, though, and I am quite happy with them. I don't know if I could tell the difference between the quality of manufacturing the Kuroki stones and the ones I bought. I am sure they are from a different manufacturer though. The quality control and attention to individual stone detail from Kuroki is most likely unmatched by any other vendor. They finish every stone by hand, which I doubt the other manufacturers do. They also inspect all stones by computers and by hand. Most likely other manufacturers only inspect by computers. The bottom line is that if you buy blossom grade from Kuroki, you won't find a flawed stone, or at least the chances are very low. If you buy another set of stones, you might find a few flawed stones, since quality control and manufacturing process is not nearly as good.

The older logo that KGT used is visible on the sets in the above shop in the backstock behind the counter.

Erythen wrote:I'm coming in a little late to this thread, but thought I'd add a little comment.

"In your situation, we we will make a set. Normally we do not give discounts on sets, but in your case, we will make an exception."

I believe what they're saying is that

1. They normally don't give discounts in mix and match sets.
2. They'll let you have the cherry bowls in lieu of the chestnut (in the set you wanted) for the same price.

In other words, "yes" to your inquiry.

OK... if they'd just swap the bowls, chestnut for cherry, the discount would be like 6.000 yen instead of about 3.000. Pity that Mr. Kuroki or, in my case, Mrs (I think) Ryoko Kuroki, took so long to answer. A few days ago, I've ordered a three piece board made of Alaskan spruce (or cedar; some stores say spruce, other say cedar, and prices are about the same here in Europe). The only shop I've seen making a distinct difference is Aoyama above, where the cedar boards are a bit more expensive. I chose a three piece because of price and against warping.

Unfortunately, ordering a 6 cm Kaya board at (55.000 + 17.000 shipping + 3500 import tax) x 1.21 VAT = 91.355 yen or 767 euro is prohibitive / not worth it to me. (And yes, the shipping, and import tax, both have VAT tax added to it!)

Buying an Alaskan Spruce or Cedar board in Japan for around 25.000 yen (€210) would be quite silly, as I can get such a board in Europe for a similar price without the huge shipping, import tax and VAT.

I suspect Aoyama's stones are primarily from Mr. Kuroki and are of an older stock which is why the price hasn't risen. There's only two or three manufactures left in Japan, and from what I understand they're all in Hyuga City. I've spoken with a few people who've ordered from them and they've been quite happy with their purchases.

I hope Aoyama doesn't take too long to react. If the shipment costs are comparable to Mr. Kuroki's, I think I'll be ordering a set of stones and bowls there. Without adding shipment and tax, the final set would be:

€100 for the bowls
€189 for the board
€277 for the stones

That's €277 for stones, and €289 for wood. I think that's quite a balanced set. I feel the bowls, table board and stones all sit around the middle of the available quality range (without counting the over the top extremely expensive gear).

Go_Japan wrote: I am not sure that they are actually from Kuroki. I have a set of Tsuki stones I bought from another vendor and I doubt that they came from him. They are nice stones, though, and I am quite happy with them. I don't know if I could tell the difference between the quality of manufacturing the Kuroki stones and the ones I bought. I am sure they are from a different manufacturer though. The quality control and attention to individual stone detail from Kuroki is most likely unmatched by any other vendor. They finish every stone by hand, which I doubt the other manufacturers do. They also inspect all stones by computers and by hand. Most likely other manufacturers only inspect by computers. The bottom line is that if you buy blossom grade from Kuroki, you won't find a flawed stone, or at least the chances are very low. If you buy another set of stones, you might find a few flawed stones, since quality control and manufacturing process is not nearly as good.

Fortunately, I'm not really that particular. Even the glass stones I have now are not all 100% perfect. As long as a stone is not wildly out of whack or even chipped, I think it'll be alright. Same with the board; they're natural products, after all.

LifeIn9x9 wrote:The older logo that KGT used is visible on the sets in the above shop in the backstock behind the counter.

If that is the Kuroki logo, then the stones they sell are from them; and likely older stock. The logo is on the packaging

I hope I can get a Moon grade set in size 31-34, with 32 preferred (as I can then get some spares from Mr. Kuroki, who doesn't sell the odd numbers anymore, and size 34 is stretching my budget to the max I'm willing to spend).

When your set is complete, Babelardus, I think that after this thread, you should post some nice pictures of how the endresult looks like.

I will. I hope I can get the stones and bowls I'd like. I'm not used to this e-mailing, waiting and hoping if stuff is available, then ordering by mailing back and forth... I'm used to looking for what I want within my budget and then just clicking buy, pay, and wait for it to arrive :p

I'll take some pictures after I find out again how my camera works... I haven't used it for years. (I've been a freelance, semi-pro photographer between 2004 and 2010, but have taken nary a picture since 2012 Since I took up Go, almost 4 years ago, to the date, LOL )

If I can ask, from where did you buy your shin-kaya board? I'm in Europe too and I wanted to get a nice but in the budget shin-kaya 6cm board.

Nestor wrote:If I can ask, from where did you buy your shin-kaya board? I'm in Europe too and I wanted to get a nice but in the budget shin-kaya 6cm board.

In descending order, regarding quality:

Go Game Guru, 1-piece board, 6cm, 7kg, €250
Go Game Guru, 3-piece board, 6cm, 7kg. €179
Hebsacker-Verlag, 4-piece board, 6cm, 5.2kg €199
Hebsacker-Verlag, 6-piece board, 5cm, 4.2kg, €139
Go Game Guru, 6-piece board, composite (compressed wood core), 6cm, 7.3kg, €115

These are the ones I looked at, and chose the second one. I found the €75 extra for the single piece board a bit too much, taking into account that single piece boards are more susceptible to warping. I wonder why the Go Game Guru boards are so much heavier than the other ones. All these boards are made from Alaska Spruce. At least, it says so in the description, and/or in the FAQ. (Except of course the composite board: it's made out of pressed wood, and veneered with Alaskan Spruce. I don't know how thick that veneer is. The description doesn't say.)

About the three boards at Go Game Guru, where the two more expensive boards are compared to the composite board:

This board isn't a solid piece of shin kaya. It's made with a compressed composite in the center and shin kaya on the exterior. It looks the same as a normal shin kaya board and many people can't tell the difference. However, it's constructed using a non-traditional (more modern) technique.

Because of that, this board is very stable and resistant to warping. It's also cheaper than other shin kaya boards because shin kaya (Alaskan Spruce) is expensive and this board uses other materials in its core. It won't necessarily appeal to purists, but this method of contruction produces quality boards that offer great value for money.

The multipiece board is made from several pieces of shin kaya which weren't big enough to make a 19x19 board on their own. Apart from the fact that those pieces are joined together, it's a solid wood board made only from shin kaya. This is a more traditional way of constructing Go boards.

Compared to this board, the multipiece shin kaya board is more expensive because it requires more shin kaya to make it. However, compared to our single piece shin kaya board, the multipiece board is cheaper because it doesn't require a piece of wood from a very large tree to make a Go board.

All three of our 2.4'' shin kaya boards are very nice to look at and play Go on. It really depends on what your priorities are and to some extent why you play Go. This board is cheaper and more practical, while still being attractive and satisfying to use. The other boards are more expensive because they cost more to make, but they offer a more traditional Go board.

There are more stores in Europe.

The ash bowls are also from Go Game Guru; they are probably going to end up replacing the plastic boxes I use for my current set.