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Saint Ravitt vs Darev

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=13259

Page 3 of 5

Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:45 pm
by rev
White 26:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O @ X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This protects the two stones that were cut off from the middle in a way that I won't be shorted in liberties after the exchange, I think. A fight will ensue, but I think I can live in the bottom left, while the dragon that will be created in the middle can run many places.

Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:56 am
by daal
Not one of the player's comments so far includes a diagram. My impression is that most stronger players use diagrams fairly often. My guess as to why is that these players are spending less thought about possible sequences in response to their moves than stronger players would.

Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:51 am
by kex
A question to Rev:

why did you F7 (hane at the head of two) instead of F6 (when white pushes from behind)? Was there some plan behind this? How did you succeed, looking at it now in hindsight? Did you consider other moves?

Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:35 am
by rev
An answer:
In retrospect, F6 does seem like it might have been better. I did consider it, but I elected for F7 because I would be helping Black build a wall in the middle while if I cut, it invites the fight, and I think I can come out OK without giving a wall in the middle. If this isn't the best, I'd love to discuss it further.

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:51 am
by EdLee
For :b23: ... some local variations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b O . X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . c d . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:54 am
by EdLee
rev wrote: :w24: Hane at the head of two.
In some cases, this proverb is not sufficient criteria to decide the best (local or global) plan.
Is this one of those cases ? A variation: :w1: seems big:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:06 am
by EdLee
For :b15: ...

Top left: some variations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X , b . . . . ,
$$ | . . a . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Lower left, one variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Another variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:13 am
by EdLee
For :b25: ... a variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:04 pm
by EdLee
One continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:17 pm
by Joelnelsonb
black 27:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X # . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Threatening with the ladder while connecting my two stones.

Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:19 pm
by Joelnelsonb
daal wrote:
Not one of the player's comments so far includes a diagram. My impression is that most stronger players use diagrams fairly often. My guess as to why is that these players are spending less thought about possible sequences in response to their moves than stronger players would.



It hadn't occurred to me to post diagrams during a game like this. The idea is to learn from one another's strategies, not to aid one another in reading. Just my thoughts.

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:41 pm
by EdLee
For those unclear on the concept:

Hidden comments, such as daal's, posts 32 through 39, are NOT meant for the players, unless otherwise noted.

Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:47 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
If :w1: , W has two good follow-ups, (a) and (b).

Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:52 am
by daal
Joelnelsonb wrote:
daal wrote:
Not one of the player's comments so far includes a diagram. My impression is that most stronger players use diagrams fairly often. My guess as to why is that these players are spending less thought about possible sequences in response to their moves than stronger players would.



It hadn't occurred to me to post diagrams during a game like this. The idea is to learn from one another's strategies, not to aid one another in reading. Just my thoughts.


As EdLee said, hidden comments are hidden from the players for a purpose, and that also goes for the hidden comments the players themselves make. The learning you speak of is designed to take place after the game is over, not during it, so hidden thoughts about moves should not serve to aid the opponent.

As to my hidden post, now that the is out of the bag, the point I was making was that in Malkovitch games, we often see the players show their thoughts in diagrams as well as words. This serves to show their specific thoughts as to what might take place. I guess my point might be moot if the reason you were not posting diagrams was that you didn't want to help your opponent, but my impression from the comments is that specific responses to your moves is not what either of you are focusing on. In contrast to Malkovitch games by some stronger players, both players here seem more interested in the general strategic flow than in specific sequences, and this difference might be an important one to note on our path to becoming stronger.

Re: Saint Ravitt vs Darev

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:56 am
by daal
I hope I didn't derail this game ... :-?
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