Life In 19x19

One thing to ponder could be OGS's default setting of no handicap. First it was strange but then the more I think about it the better choice it seems. It puts less emphasis on proper ranks (and given the inherent inaccuracy of ranking systems, that's a good thing).

KGS is still my "home". I've been playing on it (on and off) since 2002. But every now and then my account gets deleted due to the long breaks I tend to have in wanting to play go. And then it's really cumbersome to get my ranking back because people flat out refuse to play '?'-s, and when there are already fewer players online that makes it really hard to get a game.

In fact, i must agree that the problem with "?" rank and also with "~" is really exist. No one wants to play with them. That's why I do not show this signs in GoUniverse in the challenge window.
The purpose of these symbols is not achieved, on the contrary they repel players IMO.

For me its normal and moral to not want play with ~ players, its the ~ who are egoists.

Automatch is an easy way to get a game if a question mark or tilde is discouraging people from accepting your challenges. The game starts automatically without the opportunity to reject or be rejected by your opponent, and I rarely have had to wait long for a game - though that might differ depending on your rank and time zone.

KOCMOHABT wrote:In fact, i must agree that the problem with "?" rank and also with "~" is really exist. No one wants to play with them. That's why I do not show this signs in GoUniverse in the challenge window.
The purpose of these symbols is not achieved, on the contrary they repel players IMO.

But that is exactly the purpose of the tilde (~). Because it is important for a go community to make sure that weaker players have the opportunity to play stronger players, kgs tries to discourage people from refusing to play with weaker players by marking them with a tilde as being somewhat obstinate in that regard. It is not accidental that such players may find it a bit harder to get a game. It is a feature, not a bug.

As to the question mark, it does make it harder for new users to get a game (they could avoid the problem by using automatch - I don't know if that has been implemented yet on GoUniverse), but it also serves a purpose for players who want an even game and trust the ranking system to provide them with a well-matched opponent. Note also that kgs has a ranking room to help new users establish their rank.

There are good features, there are bad features. This is a bad one, i'm talking about "~" sign. There are only few people who rly care about go-community, but most other people just want to play, but somehow they now that "~" is something bad and refuse to play. BUT just the same people are absolutely calm with "~" opponents on other servers and do you know why? Because there is no such a stupid "black mark".
Just the same point about "?", any player can set any rank on any other server and start a game in a minute, but not on KGS. On KGS YOU WILL HAVE TO play your first game as "?" and your opponent doesn't know even your own prediction of your rank. That's why noone want play a rank game with a "?". And oh my God if you won't win this game you will have to play the next game as "?" too.

Automatch is not a solution, because for example on 3d-4d level it's not so easy to find a game with automatch.

For almost 16 years of being on KGS i can say next. KGS is the HARDEST EVER PLACE to play a ranked game for new players (and not only for new players).

OGS limits my choice of opponent, KGS gives the option to reject challengers. OGS forces me to finish games with unpleasant people (e.g. insulting you in chat), KGS allows me walk away, but people might walk away from a game w/ me as well. W/ both sets of policy some people will complain about it. One set of people is unhappy about off-topic chatter, another feels victimised when moderations hits the chat (and occasionally them). Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I would try communicating, people do not take challenges by unrated players because often enough they had an obstinate beginner waste their time in a badly mismatched game and refusing to end it quickly. Not everyone considers this a good use of their Sunday evening. Give an honest self-rating and challenge players around that rank and you might do better.

KOCMOHABT wrote:There are good features, there are bad features. This is a bad one, i'm talking about "~" sign. There are only few people who rly care about go-community, but most other people just want to play, but somehow they now that "~" is something bad and refuse to play. BUT just the same people are absolutely calm with "~" opponents on other servers and do you know why? Because there is no such a stupid "black mark".
Just the same point about "?", any player can set any rank on any other server and start a game in a minute, but not on KGS. On KGS YOU WILL HAVE TO play your first game as "?" and your opponent doesn't know even your own prediction of your rank. That's why noone want play a rank game with a "?". And oh my God if you won't win this game you will have to play the next game as "?" too.

Automatch is not a solution, because for example on 3d-4d level it's not so easy to find a game with automatch.

For almost 16 years of being on KGS i can say next. KGS is the HARDEST EVER PLACE to play a ranked game for new players (and not only for new players).

In the CGoban client, only players with a higher rank can see the tilde.

~ black mark is not a problem, you just have to play with less good ranked players.
I am always ready to help ? players with their rank.
I will never play with a ~ guy who have lower rank and i'm happy KGS give us this information, very good feature.

You didn't get my point of view. I'll try to describe:

1. Good feature: Letting people to check extended opponent profile, where he can check how often user plays with lower than him and how often user plays with higher level that him
2. Bad feaure: Mark player with some bad bad bad bad bad bad bad mark. Like he is doing something wrong, or he is sooooo bad.

Players with "~" doesn't do something bad to mark them with "black mark". Just let people play as they want and do not put the "black mark" on them. If you rly care about go-community, then check user archive before the game.

Playing only with black is not egoism, perhaps he is training or want to study some fuseki. Does this mean this player is bad? Ofcourse no. But system marking him with black mark. Are you kidding me?

About "?"
It should be reworked, if new owners want the count of online players as much as on other servers. Just let player set his own prediction of his rank, something like "4d?" or "1k?". And do not erase it because of inactivity.

KOCMOHABT wrote:You didn't get my point of view. I'll try to describe:

1. Good feature: Letting people to check extended opponent profile, where he can check how often user plays with lower than him and how often user plays with higher level that him
2. Bad feaure: Mark player with some bad bad bad bad bad bad bad mark. Like he is doing something wrong, or he is sooooo bad.

You are exaggerating. It's just a tilde, and many people have no idea what it means. Let me try again the purpose of the tilde: It indicates that the user exhibits a tendency not to play weaker players. As explained in the kgs faq, if everyone did this, it would be hard for weaker players to improve, so it is discouraged on the server. If people don't like having it, they can play some weaker players to make it go away, or they can play elsewhere. Your suggestion that people concerned about the go community check the user archive does not have the effect of discouraging people from only playing stronger players. I understand that you are among the people who don't like the tilde, but I am a bit surprised that you feel that you have the right to change the server policy by hiding the feature on your client.

tapir wrote:OGS limits my choice of opponent

I think that is a fantastic feature. When creating the game invite you can specify the range of ranks you're willing to play and no one else can even click on your game. There is no need to put "6-8k ranked, no ?" and the likes into the game description that way.


As for the "?", maybe it would be enough to tweak KGS's ranking algorithm so that it doesn't take games against "?" marked people into account (except when both players are "?").

What happens is:
- 4k player is new, gets "?" no one plays them (more on that why)
- they manage to play some ranked games against 12k bots, now they are "10k?"
- genuine 8k is willing to play, "10k?" asks for no handicap because well, they're 4k and also so that their rank rise faster
- of course 8k loses (if the "10k?" did take the HC then it was probably an irritating game too)
- "10k?" is now "8k?", 8k lost to 10k without HC, thus they're bumped down to 9k
- perfectly understandable why people don't like to play "?"-s...

...or they can play elsewhere...

You just confirm why there are so few games on the KGS. Cool policy, but few players.

peti29 wrote:As for the "?", maybe it would be enough to tweak KGS's ranking algorithm so that it doesn't take games against "?" marked people into account (except when both players are "?").

What happens is:
- 4k player is new, gets "?" no one plays them (more on that why)
- they manage to play some ranked games against 12k bots, now they are "10k?"
- genuine 8k is willing to play, "10k?" asks for no handicap because well, they're 4k and also so that their rank rise faster
- of course 8k loses (if the "10k?" did take the HC then it was probably an irritating game too)
- "10k?" is now "8k?", 8k lost to 10k without HC, thus they're bumped down to 9k
- perfectly understandable why people don't like to play "?"-s...

Literally every other server does this too. KGS is actually better than all of them, because once the 4k rises to his true rank, the 8k's rank will go back up.

I agree with KOCMOHABT, it would be better just to hide the question mark like every other server does.

for the ? mark i agree, not the ~.
i got only one times the ~ mark, one because i was playing only stronger players because i comment a lot of game at this time.
i just play some games against weaker players and it disapear, its really not a problem.
And a month where i decided to train only sanrensei i didnt even got the ~.

You say bad feature is to mark such players.
i say for me bad feature is i have to lose time to check a profile to verify that.