Life In 19x19

I suspect that, even with the definition given (eg. able to read "most" of a newspaper), people define fluency in different ways.

I would say that I have some degree of ability in English, Japanese, and Korean... But there are words that I don't know in all of these languages.

I would guess that I am fluent in English since I grew up speaking it, but the line for fluency seems pretty arbitrary to me.

hyperpape wrote:I'm actually surprised that there aren't more trilingual or quadrilingual folk, between the Europeans and Asian-Americans.

Why should Europeans be trilingual? Alright, we learn two languages at school, for 6 to 10 years. But it doesn't mean we can speak them ^^°

But there are words that I don't know in all of these languages.

I've been living in Germany for five years, talking German every day, reading it, using it at work and at home... and I learn a new word at least once a week. There are always words you don't know. As long as you manage to understand enough from the context to have a conversation, I think that's enough.

Maere wrote:...I think that's enough.

I think that I can see your point, but I am basically saying that I feel like the study of language is more like a continuum than an on/off fluency switch. For example, there can even be particular people speaking a foreign language that you can understand more easily than others.

For some jobs that require Japanese speaking ability, for example, they will indicate a particular level of ability: JLPT Level 1, for example. I think that this makes sense in the fact that somebody that's passed the JLPT Level 1 test may have some degree of fluency, but the level of ability can provide some sort of quantitative measure of that ability. To just ask for a "fluent speaker" is more ambiguous to me, because I don't see fluency as something that is as easily measurable.

If you consider any other discipline - go for example - there is the same kind of continuous learning that is in place. If I ask for a teacher that is a "good go player", this doesn't really make much sense by itself, unless you quantify it in some way. If I want to hire a teacher that is "7d or higher", it is something that is more quantifiable. But if I simply say that I'm willing to hire a "good go player", I might have a wide spectrum of applicants knocking on my door (eg. a 15k player is a "good player", compared to somebody that's just learned the rules). In the same way, "fluency" is not easily quantifiable.

In this thread, there is at least a guideline for measurement. One of the items mentioned, for example, is that you can read most of a newspaper. It would be easier to accurately quantify fluency in this fashion if we were to have a more specific measure: "You are fluent if you can understand the meaning of 80% of the sentences in this particular newspaper". Even this leaves room for discrepancy, though, because it's possible that there are certain nuances in the language that you weren't aware of, which give a particular feeling when you are reading the sentence. For example, in English, I might say, "Mind your own business!". Or, I might instead say, "Butt out!". To some people, one of these phrases may promote a different feeling than the other. However, it is possible to understand the meaning of the phrase, without also getting getting this feeling from the words.

In addition, different phrases can have different feelings, depending on *who* is talking to you. If you come to expect a particular style of speech from a particular person, the phrases that they say can give a slightly different meaning than what they would coming from somebody else. For example, if I have a friend that regularly uses swear words, I might start to feel his true intentions through his communication, even though his language may be crude. If I take the same crude phrase and hear it from somebody that typically speaks without using swear words, suddenly, I might be very surprised that this person is speaking to me in this way....

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So anyway, there are several factors involved in communication and understanding people. I think that the study of a language is a continuous and lifelong process. The idea of fluency, which, to me, sounds like a binary idea (eg. you are fluent or you are not fluent) seems to be said from the context of a fixed mind set.

You're right of course. It's very hard to measure the ability in a language, especially since it actually consist of several abilities. I can absolutely imagine someone having mastered enough Japanese for small talk, but being absolutely unable to read a newspaper, since kanji are so hard to master.

If by "know" you mean "speak, write and read fluently", then it's two for me: My native language is German, but I've worked for and with American companies for quite a few years now, and have a British partner (she doesn't speak German), so my English is probably quite decent and qualifies as a second language.

I've learned some Greek and Italian at various times in my life so far, and I intend to improve at least my Italian in the future, but lack of time and, more importantly, motivation slow that goal down. I can communicate in very basic and very simple ways in those two languages, but wouldn't say I know them. I just picked "two" in the poll.

Mivo wrote:If by "know" you mean "speak, write and read fluently"

I did in fact post a definition in my OP.

I can speak gibberish fluently, especially when I've had a few. I only wish John Fairbairn would answer this thread, to make you all feel small.

Best wishes.

TMark wrote:I can speak gibberish fluently, especially when I've had a few. I only wish John Fairbairn would answer this thread, to make you all feel small.

Best wishes.

Well, someone anonymously claimed fluency in 9 languages. Perhaps it was John.

John has his own sign-on and doesn't post anonymously. Just as a taster, he did his degree in Russian and currently translates old and modern Chinese, old and modern Japanese and Korean. How many others I don't know.

Best wishes.

I don't think I'll ever learn 9 languages. I'll be happy if I can perfect the three I am working on - and that seems like a bit much to me... :-p

TMark wrote:John has his own sign-on and doesn't post anonymously. Just as a taster, he did his degree in Russian and currently translates old and modern Chinese, old and modern Japanese and Korean. How many others I don't know.

Best wishes.

I didn't mean from an anonymous account. I just mean it is an anonymous poll and so unless the person posts with a comment there is no way to tell who claims 9.

I can express myself reasonably in Dutch, English and German. So I count 3.
I can read Frisian, French, Spanish ( sometimes using a dictionary ).
I "learnt" Latin and Greek somehow. I studied a bit Russian with no effect at all.

Chinese and English. Can read some Japanese and German.

Do you include American, Australian and South African English as seperate languages?

azrael wrote:Do you include American, Australian and South African English as seperate languages?

I don't, I don't know about others. Neither do I think that Canadian French is a different language from "French" French, or that the dialects of Finnish spoken on the east side of the country are a different language from the dialects of the west etc.

Swedish and English; rusty German and French (that I never knew good enough in the first place) and a tiny bit of Chinese (slowly learning more thanks to a Chinese GF)

/Mats