Byo-yomi: Do you like it?

[Javaness]

There is nothing wrong with losing a game on time, time management is part of tournament games after all. Some people believe that they shouldn't have to cope with time pressure, but I find that a little naive.

With Canadian overtime on Analog clocks it is relatively easy to cheat - you might consider that to be a bad thing. Most people do not consider the possibility that Go players will cheat, so they do not consider this point. Canadian overtime is my favourite anyway.
With Ing clocks, there are possibilities of technical difficulties, but that is not a systematic problem, only an implementation detail. Byoyomi is my third preference.
Ing overtime (points penalty for additional period) is my second favourite.
Absolute time is open to abuse, online I see many people trying to win by playing every legal move possible, in real life there is usually nothing to stop this sort of thing happening.

[quantumf]

With Canadian overtime on Analog clocks it is relatively easy to cheat - you might consider that to be a bad thing. Most people do not consider the possibility that Go players will cheat, so they do not consider this point.

How do you cheat? Only way I can think of offhand is to count out, say, 23 stones instead of 25, and hope your opponent doesn't notice. But that seems quite difficult, I would be able to tell almost at a glance if the count was fishy.

[amnal]

With Canadian overtime on Analog clocks it is relatively easy to cheat - you might consider that to be a bad thing. Most people do not consider the possibility that Go players will cheat, so they do not consider this point.

How do you cheat? Only way I can think of offhand is to count out, say, 23 stones instead of 25, and hope your opponent doesn't notice. But that seems quite difficult, I would be able to tell almost at a glance if the count was fishy.

38/40 would be less obvious, and although most people arrange their stones in tens, they don't always do so and I doubt I'd notice if there were two or three missing from the pile.

If the game were tense enough for that to matter, I'd probably also not notice them pocketing stones from the pile.

[dfan]

I like byo-yomi personally,

Your personal preference is irrelevant.

It seems pretty relevant to this thread, the title of which is "Byo-yomi: do you like it?"

[Liisa]

There is nothing wrong with losing a game on time, time management is part of tournament games after all. Some people believe that they shouldn't have to cope with time pressure, but I find that a little naive.

We can greatly influence how likely time losses are. What do you think? Should we maximize or minimize the probability for time losses? Not all time controls are even with this aspect. And if we choose a bad time control, we certainly cannot accuse players if they lose on time. It is naïve to assume that with every time control the probability for time loss depends only how bad people are in controlling time.

Canadian overtime is my favourite anyway.
With Ing clocks, there are possibilities of technical difficulties, but that is not a systematic problem, only an implementation detail. Byoyomi is my third preference.
Ing overtime (points penalty for additional period) is my second favourite.
Absolute time is open to abuse, online I see many people trying to win by playing every legal move possible, in real life there is usually nothing to stop this sort of thing happening.

You just ignored the main point in this debate. That is Japanese/Canadian overtime versus Fischer/Bronstein absolute timing with time bonus for each move. No one is of course even considering of using absolute timing without Fischer or Bronstein time bonuses in tournament settings. So what is your opinion about Fischer/Bronstein versus Japanse/Canadian overtime control?

Good that you mentioned Ing overtime. I did not even think that but only as an well financed curiosity.

[Javaness]

With Canadian overtime on Analog clocks it is relatively easy to cheat - you might consider that to be a bad thing. Most people do not consider the possibility that Go players will cheat, so they do not consider this point.

How do you cheat? Only way I can think of offhand is to count out, say, 23 stones instead of 25, and hope your opponent doesn't notice. But that seems quite difficult, I would be able to tell almost at a glance if the count was fishy.

You can count out the stones very slowly, pretend not to remember whose move it is, lose a stone or two. It's not actually that hard if you really want to gain a little time.

[Javaness]

You just ignored the main point in this debate. That is Japanese/Canadian overtime versus Fischer/Bronstein absolute timing with time bonus for each move.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise. I thought this thread was about whether or not you liked Japanese Byoyomi

[Kirby]

You just ignored the main point in this debate. That is Japanese/Canadian overtime versus Fischer/Bronstein absolute timing with time bonus for each move.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise. I thought this thread was about whether or not you liked Japanese Byoyomi

I thought that as well.

[Liisa]

You just ignored the main point in this debate. That is Japanese/Canadian overtime versus Fischer/Bronstein absolute timing with time bonus for each move.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise. I thought this thread was about whether or not you liked Japanese Byoyomi

This is interesting point. Although we have discussed a lot of fischer and it is used widely all over the world in every kinds of tournaments from go tournaments to chess tournaments, still some people act like it does not even exist. If you want to express likings for some timing system, you need to express it in relation to other alternatives. Is it better or worse?

[xed_over]

Should we maximize or minimize the probability for time losses? Not all time controls are even with this aspect. And if we choose a bad time control, we certainly cannot accuse players if they lose on time. It is naïve to assume that with every time control the probability for time loss depends only how bad people are in controlling time.

Players tend to want to complete a game regardless of time settings, and often feel a game won/lost on time is a spoiled game in some way.

Tournament directors and sponsors, on the other hand, have schedules to keep and would like for games to be completed on time.

No one is of course even considering of using absolute timing without ... time bonuses in tournament settings.

Yes, people do consider absolute timing in tournament settings. Ing bonus time is an example of an absolute timing.

[tj86430]

If you ask me, whether I like e.g. Volvo, it's not the same thing as asking whether I like Volvo better or worse than Mercedes-Benz.

[Joaz Banbeck]

If you ask me, whether I like e.g. Volvo, it's not the same thing as asking whether I like Volvo better or worse than Mercedes-Benz.

If a person expressed liking for Volvos, and, upon further questioning, was found to have never driven any other car, would we consider their opinion to be of any value?

[Kirby]

If you ask me, whether I like e.g. Volvo, it's not the same thing as asking whether I like Volvo better or worse than Mercedes-Benz.

If a person expressed liking for Volvos, and, upon further questioning, was found to have never driven any other car, would we consider their opinion to be of any value?

Value for what? I would say that opinions should still be heard, but if there are unconsidered points, they should be brought up and discussed.

This statement seems to imply that those that the opinion of those that like Volvos is worthless. I don't think that this is the case. People that like Volvos can provide information as to why they like Volvos, even if they have not tried out other cars.

Their opinion still adds information to the table.

For the record, I have used both byo-yomi and Fisher timing. I happen to like byo-yomi better. But I didn't make this thread because I wanted to compare byo-yomi and fisher timing.

I made the thread because I was being flamed via PM by somebody that thought my opinion was worthless and irrelevant - and that I was "stupid".

So I thought it would be useful to see if there were other people that also liked byo-yomi, or if I was the only "stupid" person.

[gowan]

I much prefer Canadian overtime, whether the clock is analog or computer. I do like to be able to play obvious moves quickly and have more time for more complicated situations. I've seen many people play a gote move to make life for a group that is already alive because they only had 30 seconds to read out the situation. And I think playing forcing moves in order to have more time to think is sort of silly. But then I'm old-fashioned and would most of all prefer no time limits or turn-based play with "fast" time limits like two moves per day

[DrStraw]

I like byo-yomi personally,

Your personal preference is irrelevant.

Nonsense. It is the ONLY thing that is relevant. The thread is entitled "Do you like it?", not "Is it the best?".