Life In 19x19

Bill Spight wrote: OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner?

Ok, so you mean what would be my in the diagram below. I hardly have a preference. I would normally play any of a-c

Bill Spight wrote:Second, I meant to ask about your stone on the 4-4, not your opponent's. In this case, it seems that AlphaGo as Black likes nirensei. How about you?

I like it too.

Bill Spight wrote:Third, I mainly had White in mind. White to play can pretty well force a parallel fuseki by playing on the 4-4 point of the diagonally opposite corner from .

$$B Parallel fuseki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d a . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Parallel fuseki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d a . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

What is your most effective play in the top left corner?

I don't see any of a - c as being particularly effective. I would generally not choose d as it invites black to expand from his

daal wrote:

Bill Spight wrote: OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner?

Ok, so you mean what would be my in the diagram below. I hardly have a preference. I would normally play any of a-c

Bill Spight wrote:Second, I meant to ask about your stone on the 4-4, not your opponent's. In this case, it seems that AlphaGo as Black likes nirensei. How about you?

I like it too.

Bill Spight wrote:Third, I mainly had White in mind. White to play can pretty well force a parallel fuseki by playing on the 4-4 point of the diagonally opposite corner from .

$$B Parallel fuseki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d a . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Parallel fuseki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d a . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

What is your most effective play in the top left corner?

I don't see any of a - c as being particularly effective. I would generally not choose d as it invites black to expand from his

From your answers I would suggest playing nirensei as White, which you can almost always enforce, and then, if makes a keima approach, just play the keima response. OC, you still have to decide how to play against sanrensei, the various Chinese and mini-Chinese positions, etc.

Bill Spight wrote:

$$B Parallel fuseki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c d . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Parallel fuseki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c d . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

What is your most effective play in the top left corner?

Being unable to speak Go lingua franca, here's my mental image of the game so far (inside means 3rd line and outside means 4th): People say that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, so one might expect inside to be more valuable than outside. However, here, both players have gone more for outside rather than inside, leaving the neutral holes you can see, so i would be tempted to put white 4 in one of (ie. two of) them, ie. either [top inside, right inside], or [top inside, left inside].

However, the Holy Bull God of Heaven snorts at me, proclaiming that [outside left outside, top outside] E16 (not even on Bill's map) is the way, the truth, and the light. PS. HRH Alf also says she would herself play D17, but i think that's only to seduce mere mortal Gilgameshes like demigod KJ into thinking they have half a chance.

djhbrown wrote: Being unable to speak Go lingua franca, here's my mental image of the game so far (inside means 3rd line and outside means 4th):
People say that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, so one might expect inside to be more valuable than outside. However, here, both players have gone more for outside rather than inside, leaving the neutral holes you can see, so i would be tempted to put white 4 in one of (ie. two of) them, ie. either [top inside, right inside], or [top inside, left inside].

However, the Holy Bull God of Heaven snorts at me, proclaiming that [outside left outside, top outside] E16 (not even on Bill's map) is the way, the truth, and the light.

Sorry for the confusion! I edited Bill's diagram, so it was me not him who did not consider playing the whizbang move. Lingua franca? That's for woobs who can't tell their butt from a neutral hole.

Edit: p.s. looking forward to seeing The Drowning Fish trounce Alphie!

djhbrown wrote:

Bill Spight wrote: However, the Holy Bull God of Heaven snorts at me, proclaiming that [outside left outside, top outside] E16 (not even on Bill's map) is the way, the truth, and the light.

Nope, those numbers are black's "win rate" so E16 is the worst of the shown choices from white's perspective, and d17, the move humans like too, is AG's best.

my drawing was a poor external representation of my internal mental image - and to make matters even worse, it led me astray in expressing my preferences, partly because i forgot that despite believing a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, i'm not keen on early 3-3s.

this picture is a better expression of what i had in mind; it avoids 1000 words of potentially confusing nomenclature like inside and outside (what Go writers call the inside is geographically on the outer part of the board and vice-versa). the drawing maps points into squares and vice-versa, and draws (the third and fourth lines of) the 4 corners together to keep it simple. The centre of Go earth is a long way from the outside 4th line, so far that it's not worth thinking about at this early stage, unless your name happens to be Kitani, and maybe not even then.

black and white have already occupied three squares, leaving a few green fields of golden calf opportunity.

One of them is golden calf Alfie's preferred move, indicated by an early image of one of her Mesapotamian pre-incarnations: Ishtar.

The green field sandwiched between the two black ones is scary; it may look green but it could be poisonous.

The two green fields in the top right look like hard work to get anywhere, because of black's existing presence.

Because white already has a presence in the bottom left, the green fields there are for slowcoaches, not high fliers with wings like Ishtar.

daal wrote:looking forward to seeing The Drowning Fish trounce Alphie!

Give me 400 million smackers and i'll make it happen, by following the well-trodden path of Bio-Treat and Carillion, subcontracting it all out to suckers on 120-day payments which i plan to not pay 90% of, skimming off the top - and the middle - and the bottom - and running away to the Bahamas.

Besides, Swim already rescued Alfie from the jaws of Sedol once - what more proof do you need?!

I've been trying the nirensei for a while now, but no change in my current abysmal record as white. Here is a game, comments appreciated.

daal wrote:I've been trying the nirensei for a while now... Here is a game

You aren't very successful at nirensei because you played a 3-4!

Just a few opening comments:
- nicely dodged top left
- n17 probably helps him more than it helps you, I worry you will lose sente but your opponent is kind (extra kind as m16 is bad defence).
- o4 nice, c6 also huge.
- 28, yes, play c6 and you get both the huge moves you wanted (or should have!) at 26.
- 30 wowzers! I'd just q4 and say thanks for giving me a solid corner. p8 does have some big picture flexibility to it, but I'd stick to simple and solid until you are high dan. You lost a lot in the corner
- r12 not big area, c6.
- r10, weak shape, how to answer q9 or r11?
- mv 46, tenuki, c6.
- mv 48 q8 connect is fine. big mistake.
- mv 50 small, look at big picture, also p6 is a tesuji to get into centre a bit. you want to separate b (stop centre potential and later attack around m3).
- mv 54 small again, p6 or c6.
- mv56, you played way too much on right side, don't let b make the wall by connecting at q8, or p6 now still recovers a bit, and answer q5 and then b doesn't have a strong group. Left side is way bigger than upper right, you already have an alive stone at r8 (plus p8 jump) at move 39, that's enough. Did you even consider a tenuki in all this time, or were you enjoying the train ride pootling along the right edge you forgot to look out the window?

With the disclaimer that I'm not that much stronger - I'm very uneven anyway (from beating 1d KGS to losing against 5k on IGS on any given day it would appear, I blame it on a sleep schedule and playing environment very much dependent on my toddlers mood - probably 1~2k steady on KGS?). Here's my thoughts!

Note: I used CS in a few spots in the endgame to spot-check my intuition - but from everything I gathered this was your game to lose all the way until the very end. This is an issue I often have as well, where I plummet in the endgame despite having a solid lead throughout the game. I think you played too locally and played in settled areas for far too long - aka playing small - also, you attached in the lower left when you absolutely didn't want to strengthen him like that.

Thanks for the reviews Uberdude and Majordomo! My main takeaways are:

1. Need to learn some Japanese.
2. Don't keep playing in an area where both opposing groups are alive.
3. Don't play moves that make my opponent stronger without a concrete benefit to me.
4. If presented with the opportunity to solidify territory, take it.

Some people have trouble playing White because Black starts with sente. Also, it is difficult to judge point values of early opening moves. Black has sente and White subtly overplays trying to compensate for sente so White has a feeling of urgency and a feeling of being behind. Since Black starts it is difficult for White to follow a predetermined plan. Studying sabaki and shinogi is important. You can get an idea of how to play as White by studying pro games. Takemiya is well-known for his moyo-oriented game as Black but pros particularly admire his game as White.

gowan wrote:White has a feeling of urgency and a feeling of being behind.

i want to take issue with this; you are 5D and i am 5K, so we are pretty much the same and can argue on even terms.

Throughout prehistory, White has always been behind Black - the first people were Black, and the first Britons were Black too.
It was maybe a mistake for Black to cross the tropics, because after he did so, his skin started to turn white, and then all the trouble started, but that's Another Story.

White shines brighter than Black, so Go stone makers make Black stones wider than White ones to compensate.

A long time ago, in a far-away place, some bloke came up with a thing called komi, which seems to me grossly unfair, since it puts Black at an immediate disadvantage.

So it's Black who has to catch up with White.

And what's more, i bet if you did the statistics, you would find that half the time White gets to put down the last stone, so it's 50-50 and thus irrelevant who puts down the first one... ok, yeah, that's wrong, because if Black puts down the last one as well as the first one he will have put down 1 more than White altogether so, as usual, i am talking out of my hat.

But if you don't point out my flawed basis, no-one will notice and i can press on with my argument that it doesn't matter who goes first, because sente doesn't start to happen until there are at least 4 stones on the board - and when it does, it's worth about 30 points on average in the hands of a pro, because that's how much you can lose by putting a foot wrong and falling in the water.

A few comments.



General comment: No wonder you feel the lack of a game plan. In this game, anyway, you mix things up early on, and yield tenuki to your opponent. One lesson from AlphaGo is that it is OK to play a relatively calm opening. Having a set plan as White is impractical, but as the opening develops, look for opportunities to tenuki and make a plan.

Edit: Found a better play, I think, in a variation for .

Bill Spight wrote:A few comments.

you didn't comment on black 7, which looks a little far from the shimari to be coordinated. of the alternatives you offer for white 8, i like Alfie's press, which would get white out with a bit of a wall to jump in behind black 7.

if white tenukis, black can attach at D17 to secure the corner and make white heavy, then after both hop out, chase by jumping from black 7, building a moyo whilst white is stuck with playing on dame.

your comment?

PS metacomment: i find it troublesome to cope with posts about combinations that don't offer sgfs which one can open in another window so i can see what we're talking about, if you see what i mean. i note that yours does, thank you (even though i didn't open one this time!).